A question about Gold pins and scrap

The more you can seperate your material the better chance for a good price.

Probably going to need a lot more to get some real money.

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

Probably going to need a lot more to get some real money.

On that note, what's a ballpark amout, in weight, one would need of pins such as those pictured to garner any interest from a toll refiner?

Originally Posted by auminer

On that note, what's a ballpark amount, in weight, one would need of pins such as those pictured to garner any interest from a toll refiner?

Looks like they sell pretty well at a lb. maybe little less.
This ones going good;



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-scr...item43b72dcda7

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

Looks like they sell pretty well at a lb. maybe little less.
This ones going good;



Computer Scrap Pins Connectors for Gold Recovery 1 lb 454grams | eBay

I'm actually looking to cut out as many middlemen as possible & deal directly with the refiner. Any idea what sorta weight one needs to be carrying to make THAT happen?

Oh, and don't toss that penny....it looks to be a pre-1982.

Originally Posted by auminer

I'm actually looking to cut out as many middlemen as possible & deal directly with the refiner. Any idea what sorta weight one needs to be carrying to make THAT happen?

Oh, and don't toss that penny....it looks to be a pre-1982.

Likely several hundred to several thousand pounds depending on material and PM content.

Originally Posted by auminer;121405[B

]I'm actually looking to cut out as many middlemen as possible & deal directly with the refiner.[/B] Any idea what sorta weight one needs to be carrying to make THAT happen?

Oh, and don't toss that penny....it looks to be a pre-1982.

Check out the GRF (gold refining forum) and there is quite a few small refiners that work on percentages and will do your stuff for you. You have to get to know those people tho,,,
Gold Refining Forum.com • Index page

The people at the gold refining forum are going to lowball you. Been there done that, $5 pound for boards 50% covered by gold.

The thing to do is get your pins sorted by grade. Sell all the low grade ones to a base rate buyer. Put the good stuff on ebay. You will do alot better.

Or, perhaps it's time I learned a new skillset.

I aced inorganic chemistry in school. Granted that was 30 years ago, but the great thing about chemistry is it doesn't change.

Originally Posted by jghilino

The people at the gold refining forum are going to lowball you. Been there done that, $5 pound for boards 50% covered by gold.

The thing to do is get your pins sorted by grade. Sell all the low grade ones to a base rate buyer. Put the good stuff on ebay. You will do alot better.

I was referring to finding one of the smaller refiners do the refining on a percentage basis, not buy their material. Some of them will do the work for 20-25%.

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

I was referring to finding one of the smaller refiners do the refining on a percentage basis, not buy their material. Some of them will do the work for 20-25%.

I think I could handle 20-25%. Seems I'd come out better than selling them bulk to a guy who's going to sell them to a guy who's going to sell them to a guy who's going to sell them to a big refiner.

Though DIY is still a tempting alternative. I wonder if any refiners in the DFW area need an unpaid apprentice? LOL

The problem is you dont know what theyre actually getting out of it to know if they are actually taking 20-25%. Or if they are taking 50%. I prefer to sell my gold plated items upfront that way i know what i am getting for them. I have about 15 pounds of it in stock right now.

Originally Posted by auminer

On that note, what's a ballpark amout, in weight, one would need of pins such as those pictured to garner any interest from a toll refiner?

I am going to throw out some numbers here just to put the whole toll refining thing into perspective...

First, toll refiners generally ask between 10%-20% if the lot is large enough to cover costs and make a profit.

Depending on the way the toll refiner recovers then refines, the cost can go up or down, for example if a toll refiner was using nitric acid to dissolve the copper in a lb of pins, it's going to cost them 7 times as much to dissolve copper, as it would to dissolve silver. So it's 7 times more to dissolve the copper this way, this is called recovering because at this point you are not refining any precious metals, but rather recovering them from material. If the toll refiner used the AP method, the cost involved is very low, but takes a lot more time.

Where I live, for a small refiner to purchase Nitric Acid, it costs about $250 for 6 750 ml bottled of Nitric Acid. It's expensive unless you are buying by 55 gallon drums.

So a lb of pins that will bear, depending on the type of pins, 1-2 grams of gold is not going to cut it for the toll refiner. You are talking about a total value of about $100, or if they are military grade pins and bear 4 grams per lb, you are only talking about $200. Take 10% of the best yield on 1 lb, and you come up with $20.

So realistically, if it takes a day to process that 1 lb of pins, the refiner isn't making hardly anything at all. The cost of electricity, acids, time, etc. If they did 10 lbs of pins, at 2 grams per lb yield, that would be right around $1,000 and the 10% fee around $100. For a days work that isn't so bad, however if it was for just 8 hours you are talking about paying your refiner, who is dealing with all these nasty acids and dangerous gases about $12.50 per hour.

It is true that a good toll refiner can run several lots side by side, and if they are fire assaying, and paying out on that assay, then they can process all the different toll refining lots together to save money, but not many toll refiners work that way.

So depending on the toll refiners recovery, and refining methods, they should charge more or less of a percentage, but also depending on your lot size. If you bring a lb of pins to a refiner, expect him to tell you they want 50% of the yield, if you bring them 10 lbs of material, then 10% is probably more fair.

Also, keep this in mind. The reason why there are some toll refiners that will be dishonest is because the percentage is so low they can't recover their own costs, they feel entitled to more than they agreed upon and instead of saying something to the person that owns the material, they take instead. The reason I am posting this is in the hopes that people who have someone toll refine for them, will consider these things when negotiating a percentage for toll refining. If you get this out in the open, and deal with the refiner fairly, they most likely will not steal anything off the top, and work with you honestly.

Rule of thumb is, the more material the less the percentage the happier everyone is.

Scott

Originally Posted by andrew1990

Well Ive mainly been doing the board scrapping and what not but have been saving any gold plated items that I aquired by testing new ways to maximize my profit.

Now do I just lump all of this together or do gold plated items have to be sorted based on what type of pin it is? Also I ripped open a laptop and the soldered on CPU got ripped off the board and underneath was gold plated. Would that still go with CPUs or Gold plated items?

It all depends on your intended purpose. If you are going to sell the material on ebay, then you can sort it and probably make a little more, or you can lump it together and see what you get. Best thing to do is to look at the material being auction on ebay, if that is your intent, and see what other people are doing. Personally, when I purchased material to refine myself, I preferred the material to be separated. In that way I know what I am buying, and can make a more informed decision on what I could pay.

If you are having someone toll refine your material, for sure you want to separated, and you will want to ask for yields on each type of material. Otherwise the refiner can tell you they were able to recover, however much they want to tell you. In short, if you are not asking a toll refiner for full accountability on your material, you are leaving the door open for them to steal. Not that they will, I know many toll refiners who I would consider above that type of behavior, but there are some who are not as trustworthy.

If you are going to take your material to a large refiner, they will rip you off, you have to assume they will do exactly that and represent your material properly or else they will take a pin sample when the melt isn't homogeneous, so that the heavier precious metals are on the bottom and the other metals on the top so that your assay is incorrect, or they will not melt it homogeneously and pour a bar, drill it on the top and take assay samples but the gold, because it's heavier, sank to the bottom. You have to make sure they take samples from the top and bottom and only when then melt is homogeneous.

I recently represented someones material at a large refiner because they previously were ripped off. This is what happened the time before, when he did not represent his melt. He gave them mixed material that was made up of about 12 lbs of different types of pins and pin connectors, and several lbs of other types of material, in total he had about 100+ lbs of gold bearing scrap. They incinerated all the boards, melted the material with the pins and connectors, poured a bar then assayed with XRF. When scanned the bar had less than 1% Au (Gold) Because their policy is anything under 1% is not payable, they told him there was not enough gold in the bar for them to give him anything for it. Reality is, when separated, there is a good quantity of gold in the bar, but because it was under 1% of the total value they were not going to pay on it. He did take the metal away with him, but many times the person having the material refined doesn't know better and ends up leaving, upset and feeling like they were ripped off, which of course they really were.

If you have small amounts I would suggest trying to find someone in your area, within driving distance, that toll refines. Meet them in person, ask them for references, etc. They will appreciate how careful you are being, and in the long run you might establish a long lasting relationship with someone who you can count on and not have to worry about stealing from you.

And if you do collect a lot of material, take someone with you that knows how to represent the material properly. I do this for some people I know, who regularly refine several tons of material. I charge 1% to represent their material, plus expenses like hotel, food, etc. That's about the going rate for someone that does this, to represent your melt for you.

Scott

Originally Posted by jghilino

The problem is you dont know what theyre actually getting out of it to know if they are actually taking 20-25%. Or if they are taking 50%. I prefer to sell my gold plated items upfront that way i know what i am getting for them. I have about 15 pounds of it in stock right now.

I started out toll refining, and quickly learned that when dealing with small lots, it just wasn't worth my time. So I started purchasing the material outright. Honestly, for me, it worked out much better. The deal is done, there is no waiting, the person who owns the material was able to get the value they wanted or agreed to so there is no issues or problems with dishonesty or one person accusing another of doing something shady, etc.

HOWEVER, that's not to say there are not a lot of really respectable and honest toll refiners. There are a few from GRF on this forum, one of which is Etack. It takes a knowledgeable and savvy refiner who can toll refine, you have to know your material really well, understand the processes and yields, etc. When you purchase material to process, as a refiner, you can literally throw it all together (if you don't keep detailed records) and process it simply. Toll redefining is not easy work by any stretch of the imagination, and truthfully I have a lot of respect for those that are able to do so, profitably.

Scott

Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

Also, keep this in mind. The reason why there are some toll refiners that will be dishonest is because the percentage is so low they can't recover their own costs, they feel entitled to more than they agreed upon and instead of saying something to the person that owns the material, they take instead.

Scott

exactly, that is why id like to have the money upfront

Originally Posted by andrew1990

Well Ive mainly been doing the board scrapping and what not but have been saving any gold plated items that I aquired by testing new ways to maximize my profit.

This is what I got,



Now do I just lump all of this together or do gold plated items have to be sorted based on what type of pin it is? Also I ripped open a laptop and the soldered on CPU got ripped off the board and underneath was gold plated. Would that still go with CPUs or Gold plated items?

When you deal with pins remember that the smaller the pin the more surface area per pound you have. Gold is plated on the out side and its just math. Standard header pins from the 90's had plating that was 30 micro inches. that means it takes 105 square inches to make a gram of gold or about 4000-5000 pins. Most pins on the boards today have between 10-20 micro inches so it will take between 200-300 square inches to make a gram of gold.

This is not the case with higher end stuff. if you have telecom or military connectors or even high end server equipment. something that money or lives depend on the plating will be thicker. I had some industrial connectors by Turk that were SS with a gold pin in the middle the pin was plated at 50 micro inches that made them worth $.80 apiece in gold

Pins and ICs are the unknown in the e-scrap buying model this is why they are low balled so much. IC's can be worth $25.00-50.00 A# yet they are bought at $5.00#. Pins are funny cause they can be worth 25.00-200.00 a pound. Over the summer I had some that where for pressing into back-planes I got 4 grams a pound from them I had 32,000 pins and it netted 12g of gold

The way the buyers are buy e-scrap the margins in some items just aren't there ram it's better to sell, Most CPUs better to sell, boards the work involved better to sell. IC's and pins are about the only thing that you aren't being paid what you they are worth.

Just some things to consider.

Eric