Nice little surprise in UPS or Battery Backup for eWaste recyclers

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Originally Posted by Phantoms001

You can test it but I think you are going to be disapointed because it isn't going to work. While the inverters use 12v you are going to find that the batteries are in pairs wired +-+-. This doubles the voltage. Most higher voltage backups are really running on 24v which is why there is always 2 or 4 batteries. Only the very small inverters use 12v and use only 1 battery. This problem is easily fixed with a second battery. Instead of running the leads to your truck battery, you simply run the leads to a battery, then the battery to the truck battery. This actually will decrease the wear on your truck battery and is the best way to wire it even if it only needed 1 battery.

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You are correct. Don't know why I didn't notice it sooner. It's wired in series, so whatever these batteries are, it's double. No useful information on the battery. Looking up the specs for this model hasn't helped either.

These batteries seem to still be good. My original thought was by doing away with them, I'd have just the inverter portion and carry between trucks as needed.

May end up leaving it alone and carry as is.

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Originally Posted by ozzy214

Phantoms this confused me...

While an inverter can be found cheap, this is a modified sine wave inverter that can't run things like microwaves, electronics, medical equipment, rechargeable batteries, and other sensitive items.

Did you mean can run? Instead of cant? Because I was under the impression a pure sine wave invertor could run anything and would be just like the ac in your house?

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Sometimes I type a little fast and it comes out as clear as mud. What I was trying to get across was that the cheap inverters are a modified sin wave inverter that can't run a lot of senstive equipment. The inverters in a battery backup are pure sine wave and are much more expensive.

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Originally Posted by IdahoScrapper

You are correct. Don't know why I didn't notice it sooner. It's wired in series, so whatever these batteries are, it's double. No useful information on the battery. Looking up the specs for this model hasn't helped either.

These batteries seem to still be good. My original thought was by doing away with them, I'd have just the inverter portion and carry between trucks as needed.

May end up leaving it alone and carry as is.

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You are solving your own problem. If you had good batteries why not use them??? My knee jerk reaction would be to wire the batteries (the ones you already have) to the truck battery (via a switch) and use the truck to charge the batteries directly. You could simply wire in a quick disconnect at the batteries in the backup, run the wire to a regular toggle switch, then to your truck battery.

This would allow you to connect or disconnect your backup any time you wanted (it wouldn't be permantely wired to your truck), you could turn off the connection between your car battery and the backup so it doesn't drain the battery when you aren't running the truck (toggle switch), and when the truck is running it would keep the batteries fully charged (with the alternator, just turn the switch on).

That would be the first path I would consider.

Of course you need to get it out of the heavy a** metal case.

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Originally Posted by Phantoms001

You are solving your own problem. If you had good batteries why not use them??? My knee jerk reaction would be to wire the batteries (the ones you already have) to the truck battery (via a switch) and use the truck to charge the batteries directly. You could simply wire in a quick disconnect at the batteries in the backup, run the wire to a regular toggle switch, then to your truck battery.

This would allow you to connect or disconnect your backup any time you wanted (it wouldn't be permantely wired to your truck), you could turn off the connection between your car battery and the backup so it doesn't drain the battery when you aren't running the truck (toggle switch), and when the truck is running it would keep the batteries fully charged (with the alternator, just turn the switch on).

That would be the first path I would consider.

Of course you need to get it out of the heavy a** metal case.

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That's another idea to consider. Reason for bypassing or at least removing the batteries is because total weight is about 125 lbs. Was trying to get the weight down to be easier to transfer between trucks. But it's not that big of a deal. I can install it semi permanently in the main truck and make do elsewhere.

Not sure I follow exactly how to do the wiring. If this setup is in fact 24 volts, would I just put a toggle between the 2 batteries so it reverts back to 12 volts when I flip the other switch to charge from the truck battery? Otherwise I'd be back feeding 24 into 12? I wish I understood electrical beyond the basics.

Idaho,

Just a word of caution:

You NEED to know the voltage of the UPS you are gonna use so you can wire it right. Just guessing the voltage is a good way to toast something....probably in your truck wiring system. If you don't have a meter, borrow one from a buddy and put it on the UPS batteries so you know for sure what you have. If it turns out to be what you expected, no big deal. Then I'm an idiot. But you might find something you didn't expect....

Jon.

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Originally Posted by sawmilleng

Idaho,

Just a word of caution:

You NEED to know the voltage of the UPS you are gonna use so you can wire it right. Just guessing the voltage is a good way to toast something....probably in your truck wiring system. If you don't have a meter, borrow one from a buddy and put it on the UPS batteries so you know for sure what you have. If it turns out to be what you expected, no big deal. Then I'm an idiot. But you might find something you didn't expect....

Jon.

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I definitely plan/planned to verify the voltage. Went out a minute ago with an analog meter that I am not even sure I had set correctly, but if I did, it looks like the pair is putting out 20 volts, and by themselves about 8/9 each.


Did some more searching. Found out these batteries are 12 volt. There's 16 of them. 8 in each "cartridge" they call them. Had this plugged in overnight, so maybe I have a weak battery somewhere.

Btw, you're not an idiot. You have no way of knowing what my next plan of action was. For all you knew I was going to wire it up and potentially send my truck up in smoke.

Never hurts to throw out some caution to a fellow and I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by IdahoScrapper

Did some more searching. Found out these batteries are 12 volt. There's 16 of them. 8 in each "cartridge" they call them. Had this plugged in overnight, so maybe I have a weak battery somewhere.

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It's too hard to tell without knowing how they are wired and what model backup you have. The last APC3000 I took apart was a 4 battery 48 volt system. Obviously if they are all in series you have a 96 vdc system. I would shy away from something like that because the batteries are going to have a low capacity (5 amp hour). That just isn't going to be enough juice for any kind of sustained use.

If they are just running the 12v 5ah batteries in parallel to get 10ah and then is series to get 48vdc you could just put 4 bigger batteries in there. Either way 20vdc is way to low.

your lucky the last big UPS I got was 220 input and output. Couldn't even test it.... Now I have added 220 to my test area..

THe other thing I dont understand phantom is how your hooking up the battery backup as a invertor off the solar panels. All battery backups except rack mount, will npot put out juice unless plugged into a outlet. And the outlet has to be earthed. Just proved this when the main blew in my house and the battery backups didnt work. They had to be hooked to a outlet that was grouned.

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Originally Posted by ozzy214

THe other thing I dont understand phantom is how your hooking up the battery backup as a invertor off the solar panels. All battery backups except rack mount, will npot put out juice unless plugged into a outlet. And the outlet has to be earthed. Just proved this when the main blew in my house and the battery backups didnt work. They had to be hooked to a outlet that was grouned.

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I personally have not come across a backup that won't work unplugged. It would kind of defeat the purpose of having a backup I would think. While I'm not an electrician, I'm also very sure that even if your "main blew" in your house that all the outlets would still be grounded (maybe someone with more electrical experience can chime in). I'm sure that it's possible that there are some designs that could require some strange things, but these small nuances are not the majority. I have an 800vac APC stand alone backup that I just tested this morning by unplugging so I could throw it in the "take apart pile" for later.

If this really was the case, it would be simple to just jump the ground and problem solved, but I have not yet come across that problem.

This guy's backup seemed to magically work when he unplugged it also.....

The Battery Backup Test - YouTube

They do need a grounded outlet to function in their intended capacity. If you "test" them simply by unplugging it from the wall, you'll no doubt be "failing" a number of otherwise working units.
The test units should be plugged into a dedicated (and grounded) socket which can be turned off at the breaker, leaving the unit with a ground contact

Can you post a picture ?

Thanks
Jamie

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Originally Posted by Phantoms001

This is the idea behind a solar generator (which you can google).

Usually you would buy a battery charger, an inverter, and solar panel. When you hook them together you have a portable battery pack that will power just about anything. The main drawback is the cost. While an inverter can be found cheap, this is a modified sine wave inverter that can't run things like microwaves, electronics, medical equipment, rechargeable batteries, and other sensitive items. If you are willing to pay 2-3 times the amount you can buy a pure sine wave inverter which puts out AC that is the same thing you have in your home.

Most UPSs produce a pure sine wave (because they are used with computers). They already have a charger built in. All you need to do is hook up the + and - wire to larger batteries. Most people then just buy a solar panel that will keep the batteries charged (you can also charge with an AC plug if available).

The UPS consists of a control board and transformer. You remove these items and mount them in a cooler (for protection and easy transportation). Mount the batteries in the cooler. Mount the plugs off the inverter to the outside of the cooler. Usually you will need to add a fan for cooling (I like to use server fans). From there, off you go.

I will usually use a solar panel to keep it charged and it then moves from a "battery pack" to what is considered a "solar generator". I usually make my own solar panels with materials off ebay. You could buy one but it cuts the cost by 1/3 if you are willing to do it yourself.

You can find videos on youtube concerning a solar generator. I sell these for 300-500 and they are gone in days. My cost is really the cooler, batteries, and solar panel. (about 120.00).

I keep one in my truck so I can use power tools, I have been paid to build these into truck tool boxes (a super idea), people buy these to camp, they are great for tailgating, super nice for a boat, and of course they are great for power outages.

When people see me using these I am approached all the time about buying one. What people find out quickly is because of the cost of the materials, it is tuff to find one under 800.00 and most sell for 1000-4000.

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Back in the day when solar was really expensive(it could still be now, I just focus on it with RV's) this how full time rv'ers got power when boondocking(camping off the grid). Inverter, Charger, Solar Panel. You would need a good inverter so you didn't fry your computer and other electronic stuff. It's been awhile since I looked into it, an these days there are better an cheaper options. Of course I'm not an expert on any of this an just remember it from when I first started looking into full timing in a rv, which was many moons ago. An thinking.."**** this is going to be expensive!" now I a better plan for the rv, when that day comes. lol.

That's how it did work tho for folks. I could probably find a old thread or old info on it, but eh..you all seem to have a good discussion going on it, so likely no need for all that. lol.

Good thread, keep up the posting.

Sirscrapalot - learns so much more here then just about scrap..an likes it.

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Originally Posted by Bear

They do need a grounded outlet to function in their intended capacity. If you "test" them simply by unplugging it from the wall, you'll no doubt be "failing" a number of otherwise working units.
The test units should be plugged into a dedicated (and grounded) socket which can be turned off at the breaker, leaving the unit with a ground contact

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You lost me on that one. The only thing a backup needs a grounded plug for is surge protection. If you don't have it plugged into a grounded plug it has no where to shunt a surge and it looses it's effectiveness to protect electronics from any spike. It has no effect on the backup capabilities. UL requires that they have a bonding switch which acts as a ground. If it did not have a bonding switch (bonding relay) it would be of no use to me in any other type of application and most likely I'd be dead.

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Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot

Back in the day when solar was really expensive(it could still be now, I just focus on it with RV's) this how full time rv'ers got power when boondocking(camping off the grid). Inverter, Charger, Solar Panel. You would need a good inverter so you didn't fry your computer and other electronic stuff. It's been awhile since I looked into it, an these days there are better an cheaper options. Of course I'm not an expert on any of this an just remember it from when I first started looking into full timing in a rv, which was many moons ago. An thinking.."**** this is going to be expensive!" now I a better plan for the rv, when that day comes. lol.

That's how it did work tho for folks. I could probably find a old thread or old info on it, but eh..you all seem to have a good discussion going on it, so likely no need for all that. lol.

Good thread, keep up the posting.

Sirscrapalot - learns so much more here then just about scrap..an likes it.

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That is exactly what I use the backup for. It has the inverter and charger built into one unit. There are a few small adjustments you need to make, but other than that for a fraction of the cost you are reaching the same result. Off the grid power.

How much would a 1000w battery backup cost? Next to nothing...$3-4.00

1000 Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter 12V | eBay

Not only would you need a pure sine wave inverter, you would also need the charger. A backup has both already together in one nice small package.

I'm just trying to show people how to reach the same (or better) result for pennies on the dollar.

It's just what I found on some searches Phantom, and when I went back through retesting them, some I thought were bad worked with the ground. I found the manual I downloaded awhile back, remember the other thread we discussed using them for power outage? http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/elect...hts-radio.html I did a good bit of study on it then but haven't got back to it lately.
Here's what it says in the manual for a 1500 "4. Using the power cord, plug the UPS into a two-pole, three-wire, grounded receptacle only." in "set-up"
And in Troubleshooting "The site wiring LED is lit
(rear panel).
120V models only.
The UPS is plugged into an improperly wired utility power outlet. Wiring
faults detected include missing ground, hot-neutral polarity reversal, and
overloaded neutral circuit."

I never really thought about how a surge protector works Phantom. I just kind of assumed (haha, yep) it "blocked" the surge. And when told a UPS was an ultimate surge protector I guess I also assumed the surge wasn't able to force its way through the heavy transformer. I never thought about it dumping the charge into the ground ; )