How NOT to clean up a site

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Originally Posted by nutpie

I'm not usually one to argue but.. If there are 3 complaints filed to the DEP and the DEP has taken no action, I can only assume "hazards" are low. Chemicals in a can is different than chemicals dumped onto the ground. How can this not be fixed properly? Pay me enough I will fix anything properly. Most people just pay somebody else to fix their problem. I'm not most people. But I do agree this should be cleaned up before the cans rust out.

And if I knew how a company was going to operate a site BEFORE I hired them, I would be psychic, which I am not.

If the DEP does eventually get involved, unless you have a HazMat Disposal license, you won't get the job. Lots of red tape.

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Forget all that, report it for two reasons. 1.) Cover your own rear-end 2.) What these hacks did is unethical. Plain and simple. Unethical people that cut corners in the pursuit of more cash should be treated like pariahs. That applies to the street guy cutting refrigerant lines on an appliance and it most certainly applies to a big outfit like this that should know better but doesn't care.

Most people are reluctant to involve the State in matters such as these because of all the red tape and headaches they're going to be in for, I understand that and generally agree.

However, I don't know about you guys but personally I'm not willing to splash around in piles of trash containing heavy metals and industrial chemicals to make my truck payment this month.

Better Business Bureau

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Originally Posted by nutpie

Better Business Bureau

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The BBB is like the FDA and has little to no power to enforce anything(even themselves). This whole thing reminds me of Roth Steel just worse. I would think that after 3 filings with DEP going unanswered the next step would be to go above to get it taken care of.

I just called DEP today left them a message told them only a few things and they seemed very interested because they called back.. Going to call them tomorrow to talk over everything I had to generalize what was going on because they were busy.. In Maine you can have to have more then just a complaint on things you have to have the physical evidence because people like to clean up things fast if they know if they are getting DEP called on them... Well I have the physical evidence and everything and they still don't care so its time to step up and actually go threw it... Not to mention this land used to be an old Indian burial ground and also animals sacrificed... NOT a good idea to let things go easy... it should be cleaned and left alone not let all the chemicals and metal and trash ruin the land... Its more then one thing after another.. there has been 3 car accidents on this property and there are probably more that went unreported... There are Crosses across the street and I had to put one back up.. I'm not all religious but at least respectful to the land and property... on top of it all there are cans bursting and leaking and also broken.. just because of them being bulldozed over..

Whatever anyone else says, it sounds like you're doing the right thing.

That's what really matters.

This is what it looks like to me, and please I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way.

Property owner- "How much you give me for my inherited hoard?"

Junk man- "I'll give you x amount of dollars for the scrap iron and that's all I want."

Property owner- "OK deal"

OP of this thread- Can we have some?

Junk man- Sure help yourself.

"One week later" Oh no bulldozer made all this trash materialize and wrecked everything!


Sorry, call it how I see it.

This site clean up has been going on for over 4 months now. All the junk yard has done is the cars been removed and 3 1/2 busses (and emptied out on the property) have been removed and everything else was bulldozed over into the woods.

We cleaned up the nonferrous and the ewaste like we asked and agreed upon with the original junk yard.

The junk yard had agreed with the property owner that he would remove all the metal and the trash and demolish the three buildings that haven't been touched. The junk yard even agreed to have the place to be done with in 3 months.
Can you tell me is there something wrong with the picture?

Keep in mind the DOT cleaned the land in 2004 and it was done with an excavator, pay loader, dump truck, and crew from the prison. The job was done in two days. Even though the junk yard did not have that many bodies working in the place in all reality they were given enough time to make some kind of progress with the job more then the cars and trucks and busses.

If the junk yard was there as much as me and my partner was they would of had the job done sooner or within the time it was supposed to be done.

I will add some on that Raven dosent know in this case. The Red Bus was moved there in 2004 when the DOT placed the driveway and moved most of his stuff that he wanted to keep over to that section of the property. Most of the property still has metal on it the property is 6.5 acres in size. The last owners family has owned the property since the 1920's and that's just how far back I could access in the deeds.

Now I will agree that this property could have been done within 3 months since I have done a cleanup worse then this of a closed junkyard within 3 months using no equipment and no employees (this was back in 2010 and another a few months ago) and still had the property cleaner then what they did here. If the DEP wants us to finish the job all I can say is the amount will require all three towns and the property owner to pitch in with the cost of diesel, trucks, employees, and equipment cost, etc... (I said all three towns because the town of Talmadge only has a population of 60 people total).

All I can say is I cant wait to here the DEP reaction on this since no one wants to here ours when we first seen what he did after being gone from there for a month without the truck and doing different jobs around the county.

For anyone wondering there is also AC units buried in the pile. The one who owns the junkyard in charge of the cleanup isnt licensed to deal in refrigerants. I hold EPA 608 Type 1 and EPA 609 certifications and I told him I would take the AC units from there. I took what I could before they pushed everything into the woods. Im sure the DEP is going to love hearing about the one AC unit im working on getting out of there (nothing left in it I checked yesterday) and its a good chance it wasnt like that when it was pushed back there. Currently if I took all the sealed units it would be close to 30,000lbs alone im waiting on my processor to get back to me to see if we can cut a deal since no one in this area buys them. They just drained over 20 units alone onsite just for the copper, he was better off waiting for me to come in and drain them properly first then he could have taken the copper, now he will have fun explaining to the EPA how that happened.

There should be other ways to punish people who create toxic waste dumps other than monetary...I can think of a few....Totally disgraceful....

I know someone local that has a place like this. County is afraid of dealing with him (believe it or not)!@!!

DNR in my state would have ate the junk yard alive. Chances are a simple cleanout gone wrong would have turned into incinerating the first 6 or 8 feet of soil, EPA would get involved and something like this would easily have snowballed into a million dollars in fines. I've personally seen just that happen. We do not do bare ground cleanouts and never will, if the mess is not contained in a building or on a parking lot...pass.

Got a hold of the DEP they are so flabbergasted that they don't even know where to start going to send them the pictures tonight.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

There should be other ways to punish people who create toxic waste dumps other than monetary...I can think of a few....Totally disgraceful....

I know someone local that has a place like this. County is afraid of dealing with him (believe it or not)!@!!

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That's probably because there's a lot of BS and red tape in Canada that gets passed on to the tax payers versus in the states where they fine the crap out of the individual(s) responsible.

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Originally Posted by armygreywolf

DNR in my state would have ate the junk yard alive. Chances are a simple cleanout gone wrong would have turned into incinerating the first 6 or 8 feet of soil, EPA would get involved and something like this would easily have snowballed into a million dollars in fines. I've personally seen just that happen. We do not do bare ground cleanouts and never will, if the mess is not contained in a building or on a parking lot...pass.

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It'd be like that here in NY also - in fact, Joan Roth who use to own Roth Steel is currently in jail because of how bad she let Roth Steel get. Last I heard they were dumping barrels of toxic liquid into the middle of the yard. Thankfully none of it got into the ground water or Lake Onondaga. Weitsman was going to step in and clean it up but backed out when the estimate from the EPA came back to be in the millions, then another firm from Canada was going to buy it and backed out for the same reason. Property sits abandoned currently.

I'm at a loss .... i just don't see how they're involved in this.

The first coin minted in the U.S. was inscribed with the motto: " Mind your Business "

That could be one of two things. Firstly, it could mean stay out of things that don't concern you. Secondly, it could mean manage your business very carefully and pay close attention to the bottom line.

This where i'm getting confused about all of this. As nearly as i can they're both meddling in something that really doesn't concern them. If they're pre-occupied with this they're wandering off track. Their efforts should be directed toward turning a profit. The bottom line has to come first. If you're not profitable then you're useless to yourself and everybody else.

Environmental ideals are all good and well but you can't use your business to make the world a better place if it's gone into bankruptcy. All you can do is whine and make trouble for others from the sidelines.

I know it sounds harsh but the world is a hard place. If you make trouble and piss somebody off in small town Maine you'll be suffering the retribution for the next twenty years. That's why it's wise to tread very lightly and quietly resolve problems from behind the scenes.

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Originally Posted by Scrappah

I'm at a loss .... i just don't see how they're involved in this.

The first coin minted in the U.S. was inscribed with the motto: " Mind your Business "

That could be one of two things. Firstly, it could mean stay out of things that don't concern you. Secondly, it could mean manage your business very carefully and pay close attention to the bottom line.

This where i'm getting confused about all of this. As nearly as i can they're both meddling in something that really doesn't concern them. If they're pre-occupied with this they're wandering off track. Their efforts should be directed toward turning a profit. The bottom line has to come first. If you're not profitable then you're useless to yourself and everybody else.

Environmental ideals are all good and well but you can't use your business to make the world a better place if it's gone into bankruptcy. All you can do is whine and make trouble for others from the sidelines.

I know it sounds harsh but the world is a hard place. If you make trouble and piss somebody off in small town Maine you'll be suffering the retribution for the next twenty years. That's why it's wise to tread very lightly and quietly resolve problems from behind the scenes.

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That's why I said this should not have been posted here on SMF. But if I'm reading your words correctly, are you saying that if the only way I could make money scrapping was by releasing contaminants into the environment I should do it and everyone else should just "mind their business"? I believe that is why we have the "watch dog" elements of the government, it's true they don't run as effeciently as private sector elements do, but what aspect of the government, US or Canadian, doesn't piss away tax dollars in some way or another?

I believe the thread was posted as a warning to everyone that this is not how a clean up should be handled and it's been a bashing of everyone's views of everything. No one likes to get government agencies involved in anything if they can help it.

That's my take anyhow

Well the fact is that we are still under contract to remove the rest of the electronics and a/c units. We can get in trouble for not finishing the job but, we can't finish the job the way it was supposed to be finished the way it was done. Now would you want someone who is 18 and 23 to tell you how to do a job and how things should go? Not many people do around here... so its best to go threw the state and take care of it with an authority instead of getting fined ourselves for not finishing a job when there are scrap piles 20 feet big mixed with propane tanks, sedline tanks(cant spell the word right) , A/C units, and other things that can explode with one wrong move or one wrong light of a cigarette. So please tell me how could I mind my business when I can loose my business and have fines up the butthole.

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Originally Posted by logansryche

I believe the thread was posted as a warning to everyone that this is not how a clean up should be handled and it's been a bashing of everyone's views of everything. No one likes to get government agencies involved in anything if they can help it.

That's my take anyhow

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Yes this thread is to show how a site shouldn't be left. Not telling others how to do a job but this job site is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by scrapbabe97

Yes this thread is to show how a site shouldn't be left. Not telling others how to do a job but this job site is ridiculous.

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I wasn't attacking you for posting it, I was just saying IF I did, I would have left out some of the details, at least until whatever legal issues are arising were dealt with and finalized. I support your using state authorities in this case and covering your butt. That's smart. I only raised the issue of anonymity out of concern that the other parties involved can easily find all the posts here and may not take kindly to you covering your butt at their expense.

Many times other posters here have warned against and even acted on reporting other scrappers who post about releasing refrigerants and other toxins into the atmosphere. Nothing wrong with reporting someone who has broken the law, that's why there are laws and law enforcement. I mainly can't understand Scrappah's issue with alerting the authorities to violations of environmental laws that are in place to protect the environment we all share and will be passing onto our children.

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Originally Posted by scrapbabe97

Well the fact is that we are still under contract to remove the rest of the electronics and a/c units. We can get in trouble for not finishing the job but, we can't finish the job the way it was supposed to be finished the way it was done. Now would you want someone who is 18 and 23 to tell you how to do a job and how things should go? Not many people do around here... so its best to go threw the state and take care of it with an authority instead of getting fined ourselves for not finishing a job when there are scrap piles 20 feet big mixed with propane tanks, sedline tanks(cant spell the word right) , A/C units, and other things that can explode with one wrong move or one wrong light of a cigarette. So please tell me how could I mind my business when I can loose my business and have fines up the butthole.

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Simple answer ...... bankruptcy. You made an error in judgement by committing to do the job. If you hadn't brought in the state you might have been able to quietly slink away from it but now you're definitely liable for the work that you committed to do. Doesn't matter whether it's difficult or not.

Was it a written contract or a verbal agreement ?

You might have some wiggle room there.

ETA: I'm wondering if they set you up to fail. It's a nasty way of doing business but they do it sometimes. (You have to be careful about the jobs you take on.)