Empowering the enemy...

**andyheim** · 09-19-2016, 08:21 PM

Don't know why I was thinking about this tonight, but figured I'd throw it out there and see the general feeling on this. We all know the world is a very uneasy place right now. Let's say hypothetically, superpower A is flung into a major war with superpower B. I apologize for not doing research on my own, but I'm assuming the vast majority of all scrap sold in the U.S. ends up overseas to be processed. Has the thought that all the work we do as scrappers to make some extra cash, or just get by, would ultimately be empowering another potential enemy ever crossed any of your minds? Do you think warfare is so technologically advanced that the need for raw materials in a conflict is negligible nowadays? Or do you think the majority of scrap exported to other countries is being used for the manufacturing of new, private sector goods? I want to be very clear that this is all hypothetical, and I acknowledge that I know very little on the subject, which is why I am proposing the question. I cant think of the user now, but I know someone on here has the icon of the plane going down with the caption "your scrap brought it down" I'm sure he or she may have an opinion on this.

**RLS0812** · 09-19-2016, 08:34 PM

The USA is very anti-industry right now. There are current 7 steel smelters left in the US ... 3 copper smelters ... 1 aluminum refiner ... 0 lead refiners.
A combination of environmentalism and NIMBY have left the USA dependent on foreign countries do to all of the "dirty work" .

**Patriot76** · 09-20-2016, 12:33 AM

Your hypothetical question is very interesting to this history buff. The icon (WWII Patriotic Poster) - (no pun intended) that you mentioned is exactly what would happen again. The American public would rally and provide the metal needed in my opinion. In rural parts of the country farmers, ranchers, and others are stockpiling machinery and metal for several reasons including uncertainty about the future (economic or survival), historical value, present pricing, because it has always been part of the homestead, and the list can go on forever. The metal would come out of the woodwork. For those that do not spend much time in rural America it is hard to fathom the amount of machinery in shelter belts, gulley's, stockdams, abandoned buildings, personal dumps, etc. Think of the number of people that would become scrappers.

I think our problem would be time and processing it. Our environmental laws have reduced our ability to process it to almost nothing. This has made it economical for foreign countries to bring ships to our shores, load them with scrap, sail to international waters to process it, and then they return to our shores to sell us the finished product. Not all ships hauling scrap return it, but enough to make us dependent on this system. I can't believe the trade winds and ocean currents do not return the pollution back to us as well. It is my belief that we will have to build new plants in the middle of the country (vulnerability issues on the coasts which are the transportation hubs), build a better transportation system into the center of the country, and the demographics of the country will change as people migrate from the coasts. The real problem will not be obtaining metal, it will be the logistics.

**alloy2** · 09-20-2016, 12:41 AM

During some of the Vietnam years the US had an embargo in place not to ship scrap to certain countrys scrap value in Canada went sky high as we were not part of the embargo. My concience is still intact never lost any sleep over it as politics were not my game, raising a family was my priority.

However now that I'm older have been watching and reading on this upcoming as it involves my country with uranium blah blah we little people all in the same ^$%# pile and we have some horrible history in the making.

As another SMF member said, glad I'm old.

**t00nces2** · 09-20-2016, 03:35 PM

Cash for clunkers sent the cars our kids could afford and all that metal to China. Our country is currently engaged in redistributing our wealth around the world. Undermining our country is cool right now. You are just one guy. Nobody cares.

**hobo finds** · 09-20-2016, 03:51 PM

Cash for Clunkers also wasted lots of good auto parts for repair

**t00nces2** · 09-20-2016, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by hobo finds

Cash for Clunkers also wasted lots of good auto parts for repair

It makes me sick to think how many Dodge Charger's and Plymouth Barracuda's and Pontiac Firebird's and Grand Prix's and Chevy Nova's and Camaro's and Mercury Cougars AMC AMF's just got scrapped for metal. Sigh... Nobody cares.

**AdmiralAluminum** · 09-20-2016, 06:24 PM

I think about it. But I still do it. This in reference to when I buy anything made in China (or offshore for that matter). I can get anything I want for half retail or less if I put enough effort into ebay or a search engine.

**AdmiralAluminum** · 09-20-2016, 06:26 PM

The quantity out weighs the quality but I can just get a new one and still break even.

**andyheim** · 09-20-2016, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by t00nces2;271426[FONT=Comic Sans MS

Undermining our country is cool right now. You are just one guy. Nobody cares.[/FONT]

If that was directed towards me, undermining our country was clearly not my intention, just wanted to open this up for discussion

**unknownk** · 09-20-2016, 09:43 PM

Cash for clunkers was supposed to help a failing domestic car industry with orders for new cars since the old ones were no long on the market. Its kind of like how scrapping a 5 year old computer that somebody could still use ends up making people buy new.

If you are worried about scrap metal we sell ending up coming back as bombs (kind of like WW2) don't worry about it. Any war started today will just use whatever equipment has already been made. The lead time of the important stuff (like electronics and optics) is very long and ramping up production (most likely in a friend country) won't help.

Look at Ukraine, they fought with whatever cold war era stuff they could refurbish and that country was selling new tanks to Africa but could not make more then a few month for themselves when needed.

Metals go to china because they either do all the production there or most of the parts that end up back here in finished goods.

**eesakiwi** · 09-21-2016, 06:04 AM

Cash for clunkers sent the cars our kids could afford and all that metal to China. Our country is currently engaged in redistributing our wealth around the world. Undermining our country is cool right now. You are just one guy. Nobody cares.

Originally Posted by andyheim

If that was directed towards me, undermining our country was clearly not my intention, just wanted to open this up for discussion

I had to read it a couple of times too.
I think in general, its far too easy to undermine America, around the world, in 'talk'. In fact its seems to be a 'fashion' now (not really).
But, does anyone actually listen to 'one guy'. Answer = 'No'.

**t00nces2** · 09-21-2016, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by andyheim

If that was directed towards me, undermining our country was clearly not my intention, just wanted to open this up for discussion

No, it was not directed at you or anyone in particular. It was just my sad observation.

**Kalvlin** · 09-22-2016, 08:06 PM

No, it's not cool,maybe to some %&$&$%@@@..... oh I must bite my tongue... it makes me sick- Still Proud to fly the" Stars and Stripes"
tOOnces2 don't be sad , it's not good for your health

**Hypoman** · 09-23-2016, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by t00nces2

It makes me sick to think how many Dodge Charger's and Plymouth Barracuda's and Pontiac Firebird's and Grand Prix's and Chevy Nova's and Camaro's and Mercury Cougars AMC AMF's just got scrapped for metal. Sigh... Nobody cares.

I saw a maserratti get scrapped.......a....maserratti......smh

**alloy2** · 09-23-2016, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hypoman

I saw a maserratti get scrapped.......a....maserratti......smh

How fast was it traveling, were there any survivors.

**t00nces2** · 09-23-2016, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by alloy2

How fast was it traveling, were there any survivors.

LMFAO... No, really. I actually laughed out loud. At home. By myself.

**t00nces2** · 09-23-2016, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by alloy2

How fast was it traveling, were there any survivors.

Apparently the crash occurred at a tree in a cemetary. So far, three hundred bodies have been recovered...

**diesel1** · 09-24-2016, 06:48 AM

The WW2 poster "your scrap brought it down" shows a German plane going down in flames. The US government promoted the collection of rubber, metal and rags to be used as raw materials in war production. I believe the Canadian government did the same.

**Scrappah** · 09-24-2016, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by andyheim

Don't know why I was thinking about this tonight, but figured I'd throw it out there and see the general feeling on this. We all know the world is a very uneasy place right now. Let's say hypothetically, superpower A is flung into a major war with superpower B. I apologize for not doing research on my own, but I'm assuming the vast majority of all scrap sold in the U.S. ends up overseas to be processed. Has the thought that all the work we do as scrappers to make some extra cash, or just get by, would ultimately be empowering another potential enemy ever crossed any of your minds? Do you think warfare is so technologically advanced that the need for raw materials in a conflict is negligible nowadays? Or do you think the majority of scrap exported to other countries is being used for the manufacturing of new, private sector goods? I want to be very clear that this is all hypothetical, and I acknowledge that I know very little on the subject, which is why I am proposing the question. I cant think of the user now, but I know someone on here has the icon of the plane going down with the caption "your scrap brought it down" I'm sure he or she may have an opinion on this.

Tech stuff ... that's the key. To be more specific .... it's the rare earth metals that are needed to manufacture the sophisticated electronics. I believe the Chinese control most of that market because it's vital to their manufacturing base.

If we got into another " proxy war " with the Chinese like we did in Korea and Vietnam our access to the rare earth metals could be cut off.

I wouldn't worry about empowering the enemy by sending e-waste to Asia for processing but it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

For example: Right now ... the neodymium magnets don't have much value but that could change. Probably lots of other stuff you could hoard for a time of war.

Empowering the enemy...

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