question about gold recovery - Page 2

Ok Guys, I read everyone post here, and I agree with it, its dangerous. But here is what everyone is missing, You were at one time in the same boat, wondering how or what ever the case may be to come up with a solution to a question.

Its a great world. a great country, and a great bunch of people that can come to this site and post your own opionion..

chyt.. can't spell. you get the word.. LOL .. anyway.. We all started at this point and I give him credit for coming here and posting such question, at least he not doing it out of the blue, he seeking help.. when people seek help.. like for example You may not be so smart in fixing a leaky faucet, but your neighbor is, he explains and help you learn the process,

yes its dangerous, but what we can do is educate that person on how to be a bit more carefull, in what he doing

the do's and DON"TS ..

Another example, He planting a seed that seed is a question, he want it to grow.. with ideas and advice... once the flower has bloomed and looks like it needs a bit of a trmming then you come in with the pro's and con's and you trim that plant to perfection.. meaning giving advice on the Do's and DON'T..

hope this makes sense.. again.. I give everyone credit on here for the comments. that what its all about, but ..

try not to discourage someone dream or ideas, but only to lift them up and give them the tools to do what they seek to desire.

Mr G

Hey man, thanks a bunch for this extensive response, this dude really needed this lesson. You just might have saved his and other lives. I never mess with anything dealing with chemical changes. I cheated in college to pass chemistry, its not my thing. I hope this guy listen and take your words seriously. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by bnbsfsd

Ok Guys, I read everyone post here, and I agree with it, its dangerous. But here is what everyone is missing, You were at one time in the same boat, wondering how or what ever the case may be to come up with a solution to a question.

Its a great world. a great country, and a great bunch of people that can come to this site and post your own opionion..

chyt.. can't spell. you get the word.. LOL .. anyway.. We all started at this point and I give him credit for coming here and posting such question, at least he not doing it out of the blue, he seeking help.. when people seek help.. like for example You may not be so smart in fixing a leaky faucet, but your neighbor is, he explains and help you learn the process,

yes its dangerous, but what we can do is educate that person on how to be a bit more carefull, in what he doing

the do's and DON"TS ..

Another example, He planting a seed that seed is a question, he want it to grow.. with ideas and advice... once the flower has bloomed and looks like it needs a bit of a trmming then you come in with the pro's and con's and you trim that plant to perfection.. meaning giving advice on the Do's and DON'T..

hope this makes sense.. again.. I give everyone credit on here for the comments. that what its all about, but ..

try not to discourage someone dream or ideas, but only to lift them up and give them the tools to do what they seek to desire.

Mr G

I learned how to recover and refine precious metals, true. Everyone that learns how to do this starts somewhere, true. However, there is a gigantic world of difference between explaining how to fix a leaky faucet that cannot kill you unless someone beats you over the head with it, and attempting to explain to someone with no knowledge or experience how to recover and refine precious metals. Far from trying to discourage anyone from learning how to do this, I am encouraging the original poster to learn, and to do so before they ask questions that he has no business asking.

You do not give someone instructions on how to set and light dynamite for example, online, on a forum. If I posted in this thread how to recover the gold from gold plated fingers not only would I be doing this person a disservice, but I would be putting his life, HIS LIFE, at risk as well as everyone else that came after, read my instructions, and attempted to re-create what I attempted to teach in a single thread.

I want to be clear about this because the difference is extremely important. BEFORE anyone asks questions on how to process material to recover the values, that person needs to learn at least basic chemistry first. Now that can be done by reading the book everyone on GRF suggests you read by C. M. Hoke, Refining Precious Metals Wastes.

You can download a free legal copy here, the book has been out of print for long enough that it has become public domain:

Refining Precious Metal Wastes C M Hoke

Here is an old one for sale on Amazon if you are more interested in a hard copy:

Amazon.com: Refining Precious Metal Wastes Gold, Silver, Platinum Metals a Handbook for the Jeweler, Dentist and Small Refiner: C.M. Hoke: Books

Here is a new copy on Amazon:

Refining Precious Metal Wastes - Gold - Silver - Platinum Metals, A Handbood for the Jeweler, Dentist and Small Refiner: C. M. Hoke: Amazon.com: Books

Now, to recap. I have told the original poster that they should not be asking questions because they don't know enough to even ask the right questions. I told them not only what forum they should be asking questions on, but I have also told them what section to look for the exact information they need for the safest process to recover the gold from his gold fingers, and who created the documentation and instructions. And now I have posted a free link to the very book everyone on the gold refining forum will tell the original poster to read, before they even ask any questions about refining.

I am willing to help, point someone in the right direction, lead them to water so to speak. But what I will never do, what I refuse to do, for obvious reasons and for the simple fact I do not want to be part of anyone's stupidity that ends in their death, post instructions on a forum directed to someone who doesn't know enough about chemistry to know the right questions to ask. I refuse to be responsible even in the slightest way for someone harming themselves, their loved ones, or even putting their pet at risk of being harmed.

I apologize if I sound mad, but to be honest I rather sound like an angry jerk and prevent someone from making a terrible mistake, than to lead the horse I was suppose to lead to water, instead to acid and then encourage them to drink. I have helped the original poster as much as is reasonably possible. The process for recovering gold from gold plated fingers is not something that belongs on this website as it has to do with acids and processes that are dangerous, not could be but are dangerous. Those conversations should be asked and reserved for GRF just like scrapping and things pertaining to those subjects should be reserved for this forum. This is exactly why I belong and post on both.

Scott

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

I'd say that Scott is probably the most experienced one here on this forum, now on Gold Refining Forum it might be a tossup between about 10 different people. I would say to take Scotts word like it was God talking to you,,, Just my opinion,,,

Mechanic,

I truly appreciate what you have said, I don't really see myself in that way, but it does make a person feel incredibly good, specially when I respect that person a great deal, when they say something like you have about me. There are many others that also refine who are on this site that could very well be a lot more knowledgeable than I am, and compared to friends of mine who also refine what I know would be a drop in the bucket so to speak. But it is greatly appreciated.

I also want to say that although I post on what I know about and don't often post questions, I have learned just as much as I have posted about. This forum and it's members have helped me in my own work beyond anything I could easily express here. And there are members here that know far more, and have far more experience in the subjects this forum was built on than I do, also the reason I am here.

So thank you for the compliment, I do really appreciate it, and thank you for your own posts, and for the posts of everyone else that add to the accumulation of knowledge that exists on this site. While GRF has hundreds of years of accumulated experience in recovering and refining precious metals, this site has hundreds and hundreds of more experience in recycling, scrapping, processing, identifying etc etc etc metals.

Scott

Originally Posted by bnbsfsd

Ok Guys, I read everyone post here, and I agree with it, its dangerous. But here is what everyone is missing, You were at one time in the same boat, wondering how or what ever the case may be to come up with a solution to a question.

Its a great world. a great country, and a great bunch of people that can come to this site and post your own opionion..

chyt.. can't spell. you get the word.. LOL .. anyway.. We all started at this point and I give him credit for coming here and posting such question, at least he not doing it out of the blue, he seeking help.. when people seek help.. like for example You may not be so smart in fixing a leaky faucet, but your neighbor is, he explains and help you learn the process,

yes its dangerous, but what we can do is educate that person on how to be a bit more carefull, in what he doing

the do's and DON"TS ..

Another example, He planting a seed that seed is a question, he want it to grow.. with ideas and advice... once the flower has bloomed and looks like it needs a bit of a trmming then you come in with the pro's and con's and you trim that plant to perfection.. meaning giving advice on the Do's and DON'T..

hope this makes sense.. again.. I give everyone credit on here for the comments. that what its all about, but ..

try not to discourage someone dream or ideas, but only to lift them up and give them the tools to do what they seek to desire.

Mr G

Yes i agree that this person wants to learn but going onto a forum and asking a few questions is not the way to go about gold refining! scott has more than proved this point! If he had done his research then this question wouldn't have been asked he would have asked " why is X reaction happening when X chemical is added? or many other more specific questions pertaining to chemicals and there reactions to base metals and precious metals and why it happens. I have learned most of this process from an expert and wouldn't even have tried it on my own without extensive research i still go to hokes for refreshers or call my uncle who owns and runs a refinery to ask questions there are no absolutes in the chemical process and this is the first thing that you should understand! my suggestion is you need to do about 6 months to a year of reading research and small tests until you totally understand why certain processes are happening and what to do about it! and that is my suggestion he needs to do more research that is the first step not just do it! scott posted a link to hokes this will be a great start to your gold refining hobby!
i don't discourage learning if it is done right especially when your life is on the line for a bit of gold!

bty Scott nice to see your new place looks like you are all setup and running! and watch out for those scammers lol!

Originally Posted by NHscrapman

bty Scott nice to see your new place looks like you are all setup and running! and watch out for those scammers lol!

Thanks for the encouragement. I actually just got into the new location and am not up and running just yet. Still need to do a lot of work like ducting, drainage, set up the new scrubbing equipment, etc. I hope I didn't mislead anyone to believe I am currently up and running, I'm actually shut down currently until I get the installation of my equipment complete, and the engineer to submit for EPA permits, etc.

But thanks, and I'm watching out for the scammers, to be sure!

Scott

Originally Posted by rckww7

Hi, I'm back, this is mostly directed to Scott. No, I have never processed gold before, but I am going to learn how. I have spent the last 10 years recycling, not scrapping. this is my next step. In reviewing my past posts, I didn't really ask the correct question and I now know that this is not the correct forum either. I listen. I downloaded Hoke and am at page 52. I reviewed all the warnings. I painted my workbench( that otta take a couple days to dry) I have been entertaining this idea for 3 months. I'm in no hurry, the gold is just going to be worth more. I am doing some tests, very simple ones, alittle bit of material, cover with muratic acid, and watch to see. It's outside - it is real slow, but it is working. Gold recovery is not my expertise, but at some point in the past, it wasn't yours either. See ya on the gold refining forum.- Rck -

If you are reading hoke, you might be better served reading up to the point where she talks about acquaintance tests. There is a lot of value to reading Hoke, but one of the most important parts in my humble opinion is when she talks about acquaintance tests or familiarity tests. She has laid out the book for non-chemists and teaches what is required before getting into the small little tests you are talking about. I am not saying this is the way you have to do it, but rather that in my opinion it's better to completely read the book before even playing with acids, or at the very least read up to the point where she talks about conducting the tests. You are getting just a little ahead of yourself, I can understand the excitement, but you might want to do things in the way so many before you and I have done.

Muratic Acid is the industry name for Hydrochloric acid (HCl). The HCl is not going to dissolve copper unless there is excess heat or there is excess oxygen, neither of which you make note of above. If you are dissolving anything it may be solder made of tin/lead which means you are now creating solution with heavy metals that cannot be poured into the sewage system and must be disposed of as hazardous material unless you are recovering the metals, or at least precipitating them out of solution as mixed solids. But as I tried to explain before, HCl alone will not dissolve gold unless there is excess oxygen, further more HCl will not dissolve the metal under the gold plating, which is copper, unless there is excess oxygen and/or there is excess heat applied. Under normal conditions HCl will not dissolve or remove or otherwise affect copper or gold, so your test outside will not loosen up or foil the gold plating. This is something you would realize if you had already read Hoke.

Not to harp on this, but I feel like you are not listening at all, and are just doing your own thing regardless of any advice or direction given. I can tell you with certainty, if you conduct yourself in this way on GRF, you will end up being ignored, or worse, banned.

Scott

Originally Posted by moosescrapper

Wow...some pretty intense reactions to the question!! There is a lot of truth in what the others here have posted. I just joined this forum yesterday so I am not sure I can associate this Scott with the word of God. I have however been "recovering" and "refining" gold from eWaste for a couple of years now. I feel I am very comfortable with the processes that I use, and they are right that it does require a lot of studying. After all, you're not baking a cake or shining up some silver spoons here. The goldrefiningforum in my opinion is a top notch place to find info. The folks there tend to be a bit snobby for my taste especially if you are new and start asking questions before you start reading. In many cases understadably so. I also feel that you should read Hoke to get a better base knowledge on what this science is all about. It is also a great opportunity for you to try to amass a considerable quantity of gold bearing material. Bottom line is that there are no quick answers. There are no "get rich quick" solutions. There are loads of hazards associated with recovery and refining. If this has not already been stated, this is what i would suggest for you....
1: Read Hoke, its free online.
2: Think about your confidence level. What chemicals are you comfortable to work with at first after reading Hoke?
3: Read Hoke again.
4: Determine what kind of things you want to recover gold from. Not everything requires Nitric acid. You can do a lot with HCL and peroxide, an aerator, heat, bleach, etc.
5: Once you have chosen a familiarity test, in my opinion, removing gold flake from goldfingers with hcl and peroxide is a great one, study the notes from people on the goldrefiningforum. Lazersteve has some great videos, threads, and set ups though the initial glass jar is what i would reccommend.
6:Read the MSDS on the chemicals involved with the process you want to start out with.
7: Prepare everything in advance. Do NOT skip any safety steps, do NOT skimp on safety gear.
8-Make sure you go over the process SEVERAL times before you actually perform it.
9- Make SURE the area you are woking in is well ventilated, and that there is no danger of children or animals coming anywhere close to what you are doing.
10-Prepare prepare prepare prepare reread reread reread and then proceed with caution.

Remember, even the people who are most experienced had to have started with questions just like you. This is not childs play in the least bit, however after doing this for a while, I find it very fun! I always exercise caution, and even after at least a couple hundred batches of A/P I still have a printed out sheet above the bench with the step by step directions and safety precaustions so that I never fall into the trap of feeling too comfortable with what i am doing. Being the new guy here, I hope this response does not tick off some of the senior members. I am not trying to overstep others with more experience than I have.

So keep reading, keep studying, keep asking.

PEACE!

^^^This is the best answer to the OP I've seen in this thread so far.^^^ The most helpful and courteous answer. IMHO. And it comes from a brand new member. Ain't that something!? There were a few others that were decent, but most were not helpful at all. In fact they were mean, hateful, and and just downright disrespectful. Some were extremely verbose. Then there were those that filled with blarney and completely overate others on here. ex: "take Scotts word like it was God talking to you.." Really? Really? Sorry, not even close. I know this will be deleted, but I gotta speak my peace. Maybe the OP did ask the wrong question. I'm no gold refiner so I don't know. Was he on the wrong forum? Sure. We're supposed to be scrappers, metal recyclers, and even e-waste recyclers. Not gold refiners and certainly not prophets of God. Did he deserve to be treated a little better by the members of SMF? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by AUGUY147

you can use hcl/peroxide in pail for recovering fingers ,pins, and boards if solder mask on boards is removed with very good success. to learn
visit gold refiners forum .com or email me

I believe this is why conversations about this type of thing is frowned upon on this forum. And this is the point I keep trying to make, and seem to be failing miserably doing so.

First, you don't just throw Peroxide in with HCl and recover gold from fingers, you make it sound simple and easy with no instruction. I want you to think about what you are suggesting and understand the dangers of what you just stated. It might seem like a fairly benign method to you but there are gases given off, and precautions that should be taken. In a lot of the cheesy videos where you see people doing things on a cluttered workbench, you hear them coughing or their raspy voice. There is a really good reason for this, it might seem like it's harmless but they sound that way many times because they are not doing things correctly, and have already adversely affected their health in a permanent way.

First, when you add HCl to Peroxide and then introduce copper, you are making CuCl2 or copper (II) chloride . Here is the MSDS on that particular solution.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/MS....1M_217.00.pdf

You are right, that would be the way to remove the copper from fingers in a garage setup or for someone new, but it's far from being harmless. I hear people talk about it all the time as if it's not a big deal.

You make no mention of the percentage of Peroxide you should use or in what amount. Most people believe more is better, and that's simply not the case here. So lets look at the MSDS for Peroxide:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/MS...20Peroxide.pdf

And of course we all know how bad acid is, even HCl, so lets look at that MSDS:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/MSDS/msds%20HCl.pdf

I am going to say this again.

Before ANYONE attempts these types of recovery methods, you need to read, and read not only what pertains to what it is you endeavor to do, but read Hoke, or some other book on beginning chemistry, or learn from someone who is a chemist, or has experience in chemistry so that you understand the basic acceptable procedures when using chemicals and acids. It is never about just throwing HCl and Peroxide into a pail. I am not saying you cannot do it that way, I am saying that there is a lot more to it. If I had a flat tire, I could fill the tire up with cement, and it would work, but it's not the right way of doing things.

If you read my post above, I stated where to go to get the information, I stated where to download the book by Hoke for free, or to purchase it. I even went as far as to post the name of the person on GRF whom a video could be purchased from to learn this specific process. I did all this without telling someone to throw an acid, and one of the most dangerous oxidants into a pail and make it sound so simple.

For those reading and wondering about using this method, use my links above and do it properly. You have to use the correct amount of HCl/water/peroxide and use the correct percentage peroxide in order to start this solution properly, hell you need to start the solution properly. Then you need to provide air to continue the reaction, you need to understand when to remove part of the solution and add water to keep it going, you need to know how to properly dispose of the solution or plate out the copper values. It is NOT as simple as throwing whatever into a pail and magically recovering gold. For example, if you have too much peroxide in solution, which amounts to excess copious amounts of oxygen, you will dissolve your gold into solution, you will not de-foil it. Once in solution it will cement back out when the solution becomes saturated with copper but that means the otherwise easily filterable gold foils will be turned into a black sand material that you will not recognize as being gold. It will make it far more difficult to filter it back out of the solution and more difficult to refine as there will be base metals associated with it.

If I sound pissed off, good, it gets me bent to see people who refuse, totally and utterly refuse to understand exactly what they are suggesting and how other people will take it, and what they will do with it. I believe this is the wrong place to be discussing how to recover and refine gold, and I think so because of these posts. There are not enough knowledgeable refiners willing to post about these things to prevent good people from making really bad mistakes because they have been mislead by other good people making suggestions they shouldn't be making.

I read somewhere someone suggesting using a mason jar to do these reactions in with no mention of what would happen if they heated the mason jar and then cooled it down too quickly. I understand mason jars are made so that they can be boiled when jarring things, but that's a hot water bath so far as chemistry is concerned, and will not take a mason jar up to a temp where it becomes dangerous. Using a mason jar might work with some things when it comes to recovering and refining precious metals, but what the poster did not elude to is that mason jars are susceptible to thermal shock, which if they had read and understood the chemistry behind what we do, they would otherwise realize. Thermal shock happens when glass is heated, and then cooled too fast. When glass is heated it expands, when it cools at one point too fast, that part of the glass shrinks fast while the rest is expanded, it creates a situation where the glass actually pulls apart and bursts or explodes. If that happens when an acid solution is in the glass, that means very bad news indeed.

This is what I mean, there are not enough of us to run around posting the safety precautions for all the other people posting about things they should not be posting about on this forum. It could lead to someone making a terrible mistake, or at worst cause harm or death.

I know far too many people who have had very close calls or have been injured, to take the safety issues so nonchalant. I would suggest in the future that people who just cannot help posting their helpful instructions do so on GRF. Just simply point people in the correct direction to obtain all the information they will ever need in order to start safely, learning how to process and recover precious metals, or any metals for that matter. There is no good reason to post those lessons here, and it will only end up serving those people poorly compared to the hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge on GRF.

Lets help empower people to learn the correct way to recover and refine precious metals if that is their intent instead of wasting their time giving them simplistic or downright incorrect information on how to refine precious metals. I'm all about helping people to learn, but I'm not about helping people learn how to accidentally hurt or kill themselves.

The really sad part about this, is that I feel as a responsible person trying to prevent others from making terrible mistakes I should post warnings. In real life I am a very very laid back person, yet my posts when I respond to things of this nature do not reflect this fact about me. I believe to baby grown adults would just make my posts sound like I'm an alarmist, and not express how extremely serious this all is. So I am sharp with my tongue, I am blunt and say exactly what I think without reservation, I hold nothing back and probably end up offending a few people. If I do upset people that isn't my intent, but if I save someone because I come off sounding like a jerk, then I'm alright with that, more than alright with that.

Scott

Originally Posted by skylinejack

^^^This is the best answer to the OP I've seen in this thread so far.^^^

skylinejack, you are right, that was a great answer. I might point out, this is an A-List of everything that was already talked about. He just added it all in one post and posted it to the same thread that contained all of that information already. He just read everything and accumulated it in one post. In other words you are really complimenting all the posts before this one. Thank you.

There is very good reason why I don't give those types of answers on this forum, specially initially. If these types of answers are given on this forum, people will be looking for these types of answers here instead of where all the accumulated information actually resides. This forum does not seem like the correct place to be giving information on how to safely and properly refine.

I believe it's better to over explain than under explain, so I also believe being verbose is better than not.

I don't see where anyone has been hateful or disrespectful, I myself don't believe I have been anything but blunt and brutally honest, if you would, I would like you to point out those things specifically so that if I was involved in any of those types of comments, I can learn from my mistakes and post so that I don't offend people like you in the future. At the end of the day this is all suppose to help all of us.

It's one thing to state that SMF members should have treated the OP better, but without stating exactly what those things are, how is anyone to learn from all the mistakes that were made in this thread you have eluded to?

Scott