Refiners: Who would y'all suggest?

Who cheats you least?

Most refineries don't outright cheat you, it's more like they know better what's happening in the process than you do. And if they know, you don't know how your material should be processed, they are going to do what everyone does now days.

If a woman takes her car into a mechanic and doesn't understand the work that is being done on the car, she will be overcharged in labor, and possibly the replacement of parts that didn't need to be replaced.

People sell their gold bearing items on ebay because they know that the people buying are not educated and will most times, pay more than their recoverable values are worth.

I can give many more examples of this same type of thing, but I think you get the point in what I am trying to express.

So from the refiners point of view it is kind of like this. Because the market for processing precious metals is so competitive, and because so many refiners offer so close to spot prices, it creates it's own problem. So a refinery that pays 98% spot must make up their profit in some other way, usually in fees and sometimes in the recoverable values in the melt loss. What I mean is this, during the smelting/melting process there are small amounts of metals that are lost. This loss can be anywhere between 2%-8%. So if you are melting 100 ounces of gold, that means your loss could be as much as 8 ounces, of which 2%-3% is recoverable by the refiner. If for example, they smelt using different fluxes, or different temperatures, you will have different amounts of melt loss. Also, some of your values get caught up in the slag, so if you are not asking for the slag back, you could be loosing values in that.

There are so many other ways that a refiner might capture some of your values, so if you are not educated in the process and understand how to properly represent your material, you will have a higher percentage of melt loss, than what you should. It's the mechanic charging more labor than is needed, same thing.

I can guarantee you this, if you do not properly represent your material, you will be ripped off, there is no question about it. And dependent upon how you represent your material, you will have more or less of a loss.

If I were you, I would hire someone that knows how to properly represent your material, and pay them a 1% of the yield as a fee, the better job they do the more they make. The return you get will more than pay for the 1% you are paying the person to represent your material. So more money in your pocket, and you get to work with someone that already understands and can help you understand exactly what is transpiring.

You are smart to do truckloads, you get a much better deal the more material you process. 10k lbs and up is probably best, with 20k lbs being even better.

Scott

For those of you who dont know the OP is a buyer for a local yard here in denver. What the OP doesnt know is that this question has been asked a 100 times and you will never get an answer here on the forum. Its one of those trade secrets everyone always talks about.

I've opted out sending My stuff to a middle guy.. I produce enough now to send to a refiner.. Like Noble says... Its the person that have been there.. and have the knowledge of what to say and what not to say.. and how to say things, if you look dumb you'll get a dumb return.. basically... not saying You're dumb just saying.. so its best to seek one that has the ability to represent your product and pay them a percentage... one percent loss is better then 8 7 6 5 4 3 %

So I'm with Noble on his comment.

Originally Posted by BohemianLush

My idea is not to assemble two exactly identical loads, but to get as close as possible. Ex. 2 equal loads of 5k in green mobos, 5k in chinese mobos, 3k of telecom boards and 3k of boards recovered from a shredder. I figure that the yields should at the very least be comparable. This should at least give me an idea which refiner pays the most fair prices.

The best way to make sure each refiner is being fair, is to process your material and take 3 correct representative samples of the resulting material. In this way the refiner knows you are serious and is far less likely to rip you off. They take one sample and do an assay on your material, then give you the results. Then you take a sample for yourself, and a ref sample. If you disagree with their assay, you have yours assayed. At that time you can either decide to split the difference between the two samples and come to a compromise, or you can have the third sample assayed by a referee assayer that will not be bias towards either party. At that point you can either take the ref assay, or decide to average the three, it all depends on what type of contract you sign for processing.

My point is that you should be properly representing your material, having a representative sample taken, assayed, so you at least know what the average yield should be once your material is fully processed. You should also make sure that you are getting a "full accountability". If not, they will not pay you on the other metals that are not specifically mentioned in any contract you sign to process your material. Full accountability means you want to be fully paid on all values, including Pb, Cu, Zn, Sn, etc etc etc. In large amounts these other metals add up fast.

Also, make sure the refiner you are dealing with is doing the actual refining, a lot of places send material out to secondary refiners to process. There are several people in Northern California who will accept material, lead you to believe they are processing here, but they ship it out of state to do so. The cost in shipping obviously will affect the yield, even if they are not telling you it does, it simply costs more to process.

Originally Posted by BohemianLush

Noble, please don't take offense to my statement about finding a refiner that will cheat me the least. I like your auto mechanic analogy. Basically it is the power of information. Those that have the power can choose to be fair or can choose to cheat you.

I didn't take any offense. When I stated "who cheats you least" I really meant "why let anyone cheat you". It's similar to when I hear people say they are going to vote for the lesser of two evils. My view is why vote for anyone if they are all evil, you are in the end still voting for evil. Fortunately with refiners, if you conduct yourself well, and represent your material properly, you leave little room for them to cheat you. It's just like my mechanic analogy, if you are timing them on your watch, and watching what they do, they will be far less likely to cheat you or claim more labor was involved than there actually was. Also, refiners are just like mechanics, it's hard to find an honest one, so if you do keep them close and treat them right.

Scott

Or maybe go over to the GRF and see what they have for good references for refiners like we have for buyers here.
They don't pull any punches either,,,

I contacted a refiner once, I was told that I needed at least 100 lbs of ram, or at least 1 Gaylord of boards before they would talk to me. I still don't have that much ram saved up.

Originally Posted by BohemianLush

Thanks everyone for your responses. Right now we are a small fry compared to some of the big boys. I am just trying to grow the business organically, and not try to get too big for my britches. Selling to a refiner seems like the next logical step. Once I figure everything out and get the results back I will give y'all a detailed report.

If what you stated before this is true:

Originally Posted by BohemianLush

Once I find the right refiner I will ship them 20k-40k in weight every month. Right now we are pacing 40k for the month of August alone.

For the most part I buy the scrap I process for several reasons, and only refine for a few people. In buying the scrap there is no argument about the yields, no room for dishonesty on either side, or for misinterpretation on how much the yield should be. I personally prefer to conduct my own business this way, however, if I were a recycle company accumulating e-waste in the amounts you stated you are, in other words if the tables were reversed, I would have it processed by a refiner instead of selling to one. There will be a substantial difference in the amount you will make. If the idea of representing your own material seems a bit daunting to you, post on GRF and ask for someone willing to represent your material for 1% of the yield. Someone who knows how to represent material will make up far more than that just insuring your material is processed properly.

Scott

Take my experience as a warning:

I received a settlement from a refinery today. Prior to this, my experiences have been great, yields a touch lower than expected, but still plenty high enough that I could turn a reasonable profit and not have to worry about. My settlement today was an absolute slap in the face. I sent a mixed load of boards that had a composition that should have returned a fair profit. Instead, it returned (after refining expenses) less money than I would have gotten just by selling it outright to Mario.

I never had representation of my lots by anyone, never requested a sample for independent assay, anything like that. And the refinery absolutely bent me over hard core as a result. I shipped in a load 25% larger than my previous loads, and returned 33% less gold.

Just a fair warning for anyone that is thinking about going down this road.

Please name the refiner so others may avoid them

Sipi Metals.

If you research them over at the GRF, you will find similar stories. I was warned by Noble, and many others to make sure my lot was properly represented, ask for a sample etc. Things were going well, so I didn't worry about it. And ended up taking a swift kick in the ass as a result.

Things were going well, so I didn't worry about it. And ended up taking a swift kick in the ass as a result.

I guess as long as you got a kiss,,,,
If you had seen the stories over on the other forum that should have been a warning,,,,Didn't any red flags pop up???
Sorry to hear about the jabbin'