Gutting a business for pipes...how much to charge? - Page 2

Originally Posted by Scrappah

Looks like they've got carbide tipped sawzall blades out on the market now. They cost a bit more but might hold up better than the regular blades ? Haven't tried em' yet.

You might keep an eye open for copper sewer pipes. They're not that common, but some places were plumbed with it. The 4" - 6" diameter copper pipes with brass fittings would be a nice bonus on the job.

They also have carbide chainsaw blades too .

The question is why are the removing all of this and is it only stuff easy to access (not in the walls). If that's the case grinde it and move on.



Also the large Cu pipes for drain lines were more used in retrofits where it was easier to instal.

Eric

I get the feeling that the copper was claimed in someones contract already.

Burly - I know from reading your post this isn't your first rodeo. I think you were primarily wanting advice on a big demo job opportunity that has recently came in your direction. I have been in the Construction, Landscape and Property Management since 1992. I obtained my C12 landscape license in 1996, general contractors license in 2000, my restate license 2007. Even though I'm the owner since 92, I retained the original owner for several years, simply because I new nothing about building anything. I like to think I know something about building things now. We have specialized in outdoor construction, we do build structures. Jobs as small as a new rose garden, as large as a high school athletic field, single family residence, multi-family apartments, convenience store to regional mall. We are usually the first companies on the property of the "build team" and almost always the last company, as a property manager many years after the build out. I stress a build team concept, that is how things are done on most locations today. These are professional relationships and friendships developed with contractors and trade groups working together. Every job gives me pride of ownership, I stress to my people work on it and take care of it as if you live there. I say all of this as a real small job gave me the most return. A man called me one day and wanted to build a special garden as a 25 year anniversary present for his wife, a rose garden 25 rose bushes for 25 years. I put a lot into it, he gave me a decent budget to work with and I hired my first landscape designer, for a concept garden, based on two peoples life. He turned out to be a civil engineer, he took his wife on a two week vacation, returned to his wife's rose garden. He had told me I'm really not concerned as much about cost as "A one of a kind backyard, we can enjoy for the next 25 years. I spent a chunk of his money.

He being a civil engineer, could not figure out how in two weeks, short answer it was not, three months of planning went into that job. Every construction job Iv'e ever worked had a demo phase of some sort. The demo probably second to the planning phase in order of importance. Within four months of that "rose Garden" we were building a parking lot, that his firm designed. After that a high school athletic field, in construction you never know what that next small job will lead to. Spend as much time as possible on the planning of the demo, as the demo sets the pace for the entire project.

Some more advice, every construction job is based on square footage of the job. Try to put your best estimate to figuring out every task that you will be involved with. Assign a dollar cost to all of your expenses, covering labor, equipment, time, transportation, materiel and desired profit. Add all the task up, that's your cost and with profit included. I then times that by a error factor, usually 10 to 20%. For two reasons cost that you did not include or think of. Something always goes wrong, count on it and build it into the bid. I call that my unforeseeable "big rock" in my way. That big rock belongs to property owner, just because nobody new it was there and now you do. why should you pay to move it? Also put a "discovery clause" into the bid, giving you the ability to recover reasonable and unforeseen cost that are no fault of yours and originate on his property.

Another bit of advice, have you ever heard of RSMeans square foot models? This is the most known set of standards for estimating construction cost in the industry. Chances your competitors are utilizing this at their advantage. Both a tool and a industry set of standard cost estimators that are based on cost for each region of the country, by type of construction. Remember if I read this correct, the property owner called you, that figures into the entire equation and should give advantages over competition.

I'm going to go back to a warning on the hazardous waste, especially lead. Yes it is true, the leading cause of lead poisoning is from the paints used in buildings, homes and anything painted before 1978. Most of us are getting lead in our body from drinking water! Almost all of us have some presents of lead contamination today, even fourteen month old infants have had lead detected in their blood. There really is no safe level of led in our bodies, there is established minimum acceptable levels, any lead is bad! The reason for lead in our water, is almost all plumbing has some lead in it. The very word "P"lum"b"ing, is derived from a Latin word, with lead at the core for it's usage, (Pb in the elements chart). Lead has been used in all plumbing since man started moving water in volumes. The water was needed, the lead added to drinking water was not!

Getting the "lead out" of all things harming us is a fairly new event. A effort to remove most of the lead in gasoline started in 1973. Lead was banned from most types of paint 1978. THE "Clean Drinking Water Act" of 1986, addressed the safe allowable amount of lead in a municipal water supply. California's proposition 65 required a manufacturer to disclose the presence of substance known to be cancer causing carcinogens and/or harmful to biological reproductive cycles (1986). In 1995 lead was banned in the solder used in making food cans. Almost any type of metal has some amount of leads (scrapper remember that). Lead is added in most metal alloys: 1. Improves machine-ability 2. Reduces a alloys porosity 3. Increase an alloys resistance to corrosion. So is the lead out? NO, Is today's plumbing "lead free"? NO. Copper pipe and fittings have some lead in still. Solder and flux used in plumbing is still allowed .2% lead. Steel pipe and galvanized steel pipe still allowed up to 8% lead content. Brass fixtures, fittings and devices still allowed 2% lead. amendments to the 1986 CDWA are still be added (2114 lowered lead in plumbing to almost nothing). All plumbing devices for drinking water sold after 1992 have lowered lead content, 2015 will be the lowest level of lead in new product, but still there lead in it.

Bottom line most of us are getting lead into our body from just drink water in our house. Is there lead in pipes from a hundred year old building? YES and be careful handling it. Is it toxic waste? Can be, all depends on how it is handled. Top four sources of lead getting into your blood stream: 1. Paint produced before 1978 2. Inhaling of airborne dust generated from lead containing materials. 3. Ingestion of substance's in contact of contaminated lead soil 4. Drinking water. In 1900 the 50 largest us cities allow water to be carried in 100% lead pipe. Construction of water systems still allowed 100% lead pipe for other than drinking water up until 1961. Was very common as transition pipe from water supply source to building feed through, supply behind bath tub and shower enclosures. I hope this is your most profitable demo job yet, be safe working that old pipe. Selling construction waste as scrap is the right, responsible and best approach for all of us, attention to detail is needed too!

Originally Posted by Scrappah

A bit more on topic: Beware the owner that is acting as his/her own contractor. Putting it bluntly .... you've got an idiot running the job. There's a certain order of operations that you have to follow on order for the job to run smoothly. There are also a lot of safety hazards that you run into along the way. Their inexperience will make the work much more difficult. It can even get you or some of the other people working there hurt.

I usually work straight time & material on the owner/contractor jobs because there's no way of predicting what kind of mess they will get you into. They may demand that the work be done in a way that doubles the amount of labor involved. It's a hassle, but at least you're getting paid for your time. If they make poor decisions it's coming out of their pocket and not yours.

100% accurate, I couldn't agree more.

Scrappah I said on this forum a long time ago, we won't always agree, we should still have a dialog, still respecting one another's views. My main point is there is lead in all plumbing fixtures, pipe and fittings even today, including plumbers solder and flux. The term "lead free" is just a little bit misleading, it is a greatly reduced lead content, with the industry goal of zero lead in the public water supply. Even the best water supply line for drinking water (copper pipe) has a small amount of lead, less than .5%. Remember lead is accumulated in our bodies, all of those small amounts of lead, can add up eventually to very harmful amounts.

There is still to many contaminated lead paint projects to last my lifetime. We as a society have overall decided lead poisoning is "bad stuff", started the process in the 70's of removing it in just about everything, from the gasoline in our cars to the paint on our walls. Why in the hell did we make our drinking water almost the last priority in this process of getting the "lead out". We knew lead was dangerous in the 1880's and we waited 100 years almost before we decided, it would be a good idea to test the drinking water for quality and toxic substances. The "water company" it was decided should do the testing. Water naturally has no lead in it, most of the time we are smart enough not to contaminate the water we drink. The "water Company" takes water with no lead in it to start with. Transfers it to the consumer in lead pipe, leaching lead into the drinking water and have been for years. New York Cities water company was one of the last to stop using 100% lead pipe. Continued to use 100% lead pipe from the water main to the water meter until 1961. Everything you said about the "water company" using additives to control the corrosion of pipe containing lead in it is true. That took legislation requiring them to do so, more than ten years after they knew, the water supply pipes were adding dangerous levels of lead. Why add chemicals to drinking water to minimize corrosion from leaching lead into drinking water? How many mistakes has the "water companies" made? Washington DC water company, in a miscalculated error in "chemically" adjusting the waters PH level. Did just the opposite, making the water acidic, increasing the corrosion in the entire system, leaching even more lead into water supply. (thanks for carefully adjusting my lead free water and adding lead).

I could go on and on, it's real simple, drinking water should not have lead in it! Any lead is biologically bad in people, especially kids. Every agency, trade organization, standards group, CDC, AMA to EPA says get the "led out". In 1986 the Safe Drinking Water Act was amended again, stating no plumbing device used for drinking water can contain any amount of lead. Almost in the very next paragraph starts stating minimum percentages of allowable amounts of lead! Today thirty years later, more amendments to the safe drinking water act, steel pipe with a 8% lead content is being used to deliver drinking water.

Am I overstating the lead in drinking water? I thought no meant no! It started out at the water treatment plant with no lead in it, it comes out of my kitchen sink and into my water glass with lead. I want to be careful and not overstate the fact that it's just a small amount. of carefully chemically adjusted water, that now only has minimized amounts of a dangerous heavy metal call "lead".

I think most of us have heard of Underwriters Laboratories, the group that puts the UL symbol on things telling us, we tested this and it's safe. A recent statement from those "Experts" : As originally implemented, the SDWA required public water systems to minimize lead concentrations by controlling the corrosion that resulted in lead leaching from the water system infrastructure.Typically, such control was achieved through careful management of the water’s mineral content, acidity and temperature as well as through the proper maintenance and replacement of the water system’s piping .But while effective in controlling lead concentrations after the fact, this approach did little to control the original source of the lead found in drinking water, that is, the pipes and fittings used in the installation and repair of public water systems. It also did not address plumbing fixtures found in residences and other extensions of public water systems.

What they are saying is: Closing the gate, after your cows have got out, is not very efficient!

What I think all of us that scrap anything needs to know, most things we do, can be harmful to us, our families and our community. We deal with many materials that contain lead, from steel water pipe, yellow brass door knobs to the high grade circuit boards. The simple act of cutting a metal pipe, repeating that task over and over again. Creates a ever increasing amount of metal dust, that fine dust is easily transferred to other surfaces. Can become "airborne" inhaled into our respiratory system, contaminate the soil in our gardens, carried into the house on our clothing, washed away with water and into a water supply. That big demo job, with the 100 year old water pipes needs to be handled correctly, it just might contain something called lead. Don't worry it's just a small percentage of lead and "they" been using it in everything!

Be smart, be safe, make some money and take care of your families. Next time you have a physical, doctor wants to do some blood work. ask the doctor to test your blood for lead. I did, after I got the results, I started learning about how the lead got into my blood!

Scrappah - I don't want to mislead you are anyone here at SMF. I don't have lead poisoning, I do have a higher than normal BLL (Blood Lead Level). I have had problems with blood circulation for last four years. In my legs and mostly from knees down. I'm like the average man, when I have a medical condition, I shrug it off, keep working until I can't. A little over a year ago, after working another six day week with almost all being 12+ hours. I was in our bedroom taking my boots off, could hardly get them off. GF started helping me, she took the boots off and the first sock, then said: WTF is wrong with your foot! She took the other sock off, same thing and said: Your going to F,ing doctor!

A year later I still have same problem, I also have Neuropathic Pain or "Neuropathy". I now have days when I can't work a normal day, I still work, just more time at my desk and have to put my feet up often. I now sleep with my feet elevated every night and five bottles of pills beside my bed. I also have weeks of no swollen feet, where I do get out into the field where the real work is. I have pain though 24/7, a tingling, burning and jabbing pain. Some days my feet are just numb, on those days it's hard to walk to the bathroom.

Doctors have ruled out blood poisoning, but have told me to limit as much as possible anything containing lead. Neuropathy is one of many medical problems that blood poisoning can cause. Neuropathy is most often associated with diabetes and I don't have that neither. The doctors have started focusing in on a valve, sets just below your heart, like a check-valve. It sends blood to your lower extremities and allows blood to return back to your heart. Will know more in the next couple of weeks, and get this taken care of. I will probably always have Neuropathy in my lower legs. As the results of nerve damage caused more than likely from blood circulation not what it should be to my feet. If I would have went to the doctor four years ago, when my feet first started hurting, could have possibly prevented the permanent nerve damage. Could of's and should of's!

Drinking water at your kitchen sink, is one of four places most likely to cause lead contamination. Those of us that lived in this country, from 1950 to 2000 did so in the highest possible lead exposure risk period. People in this country when tested for BLL in that period of time, are estimated to have BLL's 100 times greater than people before the "Industrial Age". Lead does not get into our bodies all at once, it happens over a period of time and from many sources. We that work with scrap metals and circuit boards also work at the "risk" of lead contamination. We should all know of the dangers of lead poisoning and do everything possible to lower the "risk" of lead contamination to ourselves and those around us.

The good news we are getting the "lead out", lead will never be totally eliminated in our lives. There are uses for lead, that only lead should and will be used. Plumbing products used for drinking water is not one of them. The "Industries" and trade groups are getting there, they are just taking a lot longer than it should have taken. Drinking water should not contain lead, No lead content in plumbing pipes, fixtures and fittings. No means "No", it does not mean "acceptable percentages or levels". The risk of lead poisoning has been reduced greatly, every year since 1974 BLL's of people tested has dropped. Amendment 2014 of Clean Drinking Water Act has required all plumbing fittings to be less than .2% lead content. We will be dealing with lead in our drinking water for a long time, there's still a lot of lead in our domestic drinking water delivery system.

We are all responsible for getting the "lead out", the highest percentage of lead containing plumbing devices, is in the pipe between the water meter and our homes and buildings. The second highest source of lead containing plumbing devices is in the pipes and fixtures of our homes and buildings. The water district or water company doe's not own that portion of the delivery system, it's private property, it belongs to the property owner. The water company is required to do water quality test at the drinking water faucets of their customers. These are to be random samples and samples of known high risk properties (constructed before 1974). Has anyone had their drinking water tested by their water district?

I'm sorry if I have been OT with lead in drinking water or overstated the amount of lead in the pipes, fixtures and fittings. This thread is about a member wanting information about the demolition of a apartment building that is possibly 100 years old. The first thing that I thought of: "That's a lot pipe and most of it contains lead from highly corroded pipe". One of the single highest possible sources to hazardous material exposure: Is any building demolition of a structure built before 1973. There is risk of Lead, Asbestos and Arsenic, that is only three of other known hazardous materials associated with the demolition of a older structure. My source is the Michigan Department of Health, the state of the OP's demolition job.

Originally Posted by Scrappah

It sounds like they're doing a re-hab of a 100 year old apartment building. Best way to approach it would be to completely gut the building right down to bare studs and start over from there. The mechanicals like plumbing,electrical, & heating would be ancient. Building codes in almost any major city would require that all the old stuff be removed & everything updated to meet current code.

Phew ... i hear you about retrofitting with copper on the drain lines. I had to pipe up an upstairs bathroom with cast iron drain line back in the mid-90's. That stuff is uncommonly difficult to work with !

I can see why it evolved from steel & iron pipes to copper. By the late 90's they had transitioned from copper to everything plastic in this area. Plastic is much faster to install and works better than everything that came before it.

@ Burly .... If it was an old steam boiler they might have still been using the old cast iron radiators in the building. I don't know if it still holds true, but at one time there they were in demand just like the old clawfoot tubs were. It's a maybe .....
http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/scrap...radiators.html

Thanks for that info! I have submitted a quote, now it is hurry up and wait...

Originally Posted by bigburtchino

Burly - I know from reading your post this isn't your first rodeo. I think you were primarily wanting advice on a big demo job opportunity that has recently came in your direction. I have been in the Construction, Landscape and Property Management since 1992. I obtained my C12 landscape license in 1996, general contractors license in 2000, my restate license 2007. Even though I'm the owner since 92, I retained the original owner for several years, simply because I new nothing about building anything. I like to think I know something about building things now. We have specialized in outdoor construction, we do build structures. Jobs as small as a new rose garden, as large as a high school athletic field, single family residence, multi-family apartments, convenience store to regional mall. We are usually the first companies on the property of the "build team" and almost always the last company, as a property manager many years after the build out. I stress a build team concept, that is how things are done on most locations today. These are professional relationships and friendships developed with contractors and trade groups working together. Every job gives me pride of ownership, I stress to my people work on it and take care of it as if you live there. I say all of this as a real small job gave me the most return. A man called me one day and wanted to build a special garden as a 25 year anniversary present for his wife, a rose garden 25 rose bushes for 25 years. I put a lot into it, he gave me a decent budget to work with and I hired my first landscape designer, for a concept garden, based on two peoples life. He turned out to be a civil engineer, he took his wife on a two week vacation, returned to his wife's rose garden. He had told me I'm really not concerned as much about cost as "A one of a kind backyard, we can enjoy for the next 25 years. I spent a chunk of his money.

He being a civil engineer, could not figure out how in two weeks, short answer it was not, three months of planning went into that job. Every construction job Iv'e ever worked had a demo phase of some sort. The demo probably second to the planning phase in order of importance. Within four months of that "rose Garden" we were building a parking lot, that his firm designed. After that a high school athletic field, in construction you never know what that next small job will lead to. Spend as much time as possible on the planning of the demo, as the demo sets the pace for the entire project.

Some more advice, every construction job is based on square footage of the job. Try to put your best estimate to figuring out every task that you will be involved with. Assign a dollar cost to all of your expenses, covering labor, equipment, time, transportation, materiel and desired profit. Add all the task up, that's your cost and with profit included. I then times that by a error factor, usually 10 to 20%. For two reasons cost that you did not include or think of. Something always goes wrong, count on it and build it into the bid. I call that my unforeseeable "big rock" in my way. That big rock belongs to property owner, just because nobody new it was there and now you do. why should you pay to move it? Also put a "discovery clause" into the bid, giving you the ability to recover reasonable and unforeseen cost that are no fault of yours and originate on his property.

Another bit of advice, have you ever heard of RSMeans square foot models? This is the most known set of standards for estimating construction cost in the industry. Chances your competitors are utilizing this at their advantage. Both a tool and a industry set of standard cost estimators that are based on cost for each region of the country, by type of construction. Remember if I read this correct, the property owner called you, that figures into the entire equation and should give advantages over competition.

I'm going to go back to a warning on the hazardous waste, especially lead. Yes it is true, the leading cause of lead poisoning is from the paints used in buildings, homes and anything painted before 1978. Most of us are getting lead in our body from drinking water! Almost all of us have some presents of lead contamination today, even fourteen month old infants have had lead detected in their blood. There really is no safe level of led in our bodies, there is established minimum acceptable levels, any lead is bad! The reason for lead in our water, is almost all plumbing has some lead in it. The very word "P"lum"b"ing, is derived from a Latin word, with lead at the core for it's usage, (Pb in the elements chart). Lead has been used in all plumbing since man started moving water in volumes. The water was needed, the lead added to drinking water was not!

Getting the "lead out" of all things harming us is a fairly new event. A effort to remove most of the lead in gasoline started in 1973. Lead was banned from most types of paint 1978. THE "Clean Drinking Water Act" of 1986, addressed the safe allowable amount of lead in a municipal water supply. California's proposition 65 required a manufacturer to disclose the presence of substance known to be cancer causing carcinogens and/or harmful to biological reproductive cycles (1986). In 1995 lead was banned in the solder used in making food cans. Almost any type of metal has some amount of leads (scrapper remember that). Lead is added in most metal alloys: 1. Improves machine-ability 2. Reduces a alloys porosity 3. Increase an alloys resistance to corrosion. So is the lead out? NO, Is today's plumbing "lead free"? NO. Copper pipe and fittings have some lead in still. Solder and flux used in plumbing is still allowed .2% lead. Steel pipe and galvanized steel pipe still allowed up to 8% lead content. Brass fixtures, fittings and devices still allowed 2% lead. amendments to the 1986 CDWA are still be added (2114 lowered lead in plumbing to almost nothing). All plumbing devices for drinking water sold after 1992 have lowered lead content, 2015 will be the lowest level of lead in new product, but still there lead in it.

Bottom line most of us are getting lead into our body from just drink water in our house. Is there lead in pipes from a hundred year old building? YES and be careful handling it. Is it toxic waste? Can be, all depends on how it is handled. Top four sources of lead getting into your blood stream: 1. Paint produced before 1978 2. Inhaling of airborne dust generated from lead containing materials. 3. Ingestion of substance's in contact of contaminated lead soil 4. Drinking water. In 1900 the 50 largest us cities allow water to be carried in 100% lead pipe. Construction of water systems still allowed 100% lead pipe for other than drinking water up until 1961. Was very common as transition pipe from water supply source to building feed through, supply behind bath tub and shower enclosures. I hope this is your most profitable demo job yet, be safe working that old pipe. Selling construction waste as scrap is the right, responsible and best approach for all of us, attention to detail is needed too!

Whew! Thank you SO much for your insightful, well written response!

Originally Posted by bigburtchino

Scrappah I said on this forum a long time ago, we won't always agree, we should still have a dialog, still respecting one another's views. My main point is there is lead in all plumbing fixtures, pipe and fittings even today, including plumbers solder and flux. The term "lead free" is just a little bit misleading, it is a greatly reduced lead content, with the industry goal of zero lead in the public water supply. Even the best water supply line for drinking water (copper pipe) has a small amount of lead, less than .5%. Remember lead is accumulated in our bodies, all of those small amounts of lead, can add up eventually to very harmful amounts.

There is still to many contaminated lead paint projects to last my lifetime. We as a society have overall decided lead poisoning is "bad stuff", started the process in the 70's of removing it in just about everything, from the gasoline in our cars to the paint on our walls. Why in the hell did we make our drinking water almost the last priority in this process of getting the "lead out". We knew lead was dangerous in the 1880's and we waited 100 years almost before we decided, it would be a good idea to test the drinking water for quality and toxic substances. The "water company" it was decided should do the testing. Water naturally has no lead in it, most of the time we are smart enough not to contaminate the water we drink. The "water Company" takes water with no lead in it to start with. Transfers it to the consumer in lead pipe, leaching lead into the drinking water and have been for years. New York Cities water company was one of the last to stop using 100% lead pipe. Continued to use 100% lead pipe from the water main to the water meter until 1961. Everything you said about the "water company" using additives to control the corrosion of pipe containing lead in it is true. That took legislation requiring them to do so, more than ten years after they knew, the water supply pipes were adding dangerous levels of lead. Why add chemicals to drinking water to minimize corrosion from leaching lead into drinking water? How many mistakes has the "water companies" made? Washington DC water company, in a miscalculated error in "chemically" adjusting the waters PH level. Did just the opposite, making the water acidic, increasing the corrosion in the entire system, leaching even more lead into water supply. (thanks for carefully adjusting my lead free water and adding lead).

I could go on and on, it's real simple, drinking water should not have lead in it! Any lead is biologically bad in people, especially kids. Every agency, trade organization, standards group, CDC, AMA to EPA says get the "led out". In 1986 the Safe Drinking Water Act was amended again, stating no plumbing device used for drinking water can contain any amount of lead. Almost in the very next paragraph starts stating minimum percentages of allowable amounts of lead! Today thirty years later, more amendments to the safe drinking water act, steel pipe with a 8% lead content is being used to deliver drinking water.

Am I overstating the lead in drinking water? I thought no meant no! It started out at the water treatment plant with no lead in it, it comes out of my kitchen sink and into my water glass with lead. I want to be careful and not overstate the fact that it's just a small amount. of carefully chemically adjusted water, that now only has minimized amounts of a dangerous heavy metal call "lead".

I think most of us have heard of Underwriters Laboratories, the group that puts the UL symbol on things telling us, we tested this and it's safe. A recent statement from those "Experts" : As originally implemented, the SDWA required public water systems to minimize lead concentrations by controlling the corrosion that resulted in lead leaching from the water system infrastructure.Typically, such control was achieved through careful management of the water’s mineral content, acidity and temperature as well as through the proper maintenance and replacement of the water system’s piping .But while effective in controlling lead concentrations after the fact, this approach did little to control the original source of the lead found in drinking water, that is, the pipes and fittings used in the installation and repair of public water systems. It also did not address plumbing fixtures found in residences and other extensions of public water systems.

What they are saying is: Closing the gate, after your cows have got out, is not very efficient!

What I think all of us that scrap anything needs to know, most things we do, can be harmful to us, our families and our community. We deal with many materials that contain lead, from steel water pipe, yellow brass door knobs to the high grade circuit boards. The simple act of cutting a metal pipe, repeating that task over and over again. Creates a ever increasing amount of metal dust, that fine dust is easily transferred to other surfaces. Can become "airborne" inhaled into our respiratory system, contaminate the soil in our gardens, carried into the house on our clothing, washed away with water and into a water supply. That big demo job, with the 100 year old water pipes needs to be handled correctly, it just might contain something called lead. Don't worry it's just a small percentage of lead and "they" been using it in everything!

Be smart, be safe, make some money and take care of your families. Next time you have a physical, doctor wants to do some blood work. ask the doctor to test your blood for lead. I did, after I got the results, I started learning about how the lead got into my blood!

Again, wow! SMF never disappoints when seeking info we need on how to do a particular job. Thank you, sir!

Originally Posted by Scrappah

I dunno .... I'm dealing with a lot of idiots lately. The customers that are good are better than ever. The ones that have been moderately difficult in the past have become almost intolerable. At first glance i would have to ask myself if i'm doing something wrong but it seems to be more widespread. Been networking with the other trades and they've been running into the same problems as well. One very successful roofing contractor with excellent customer skills that i know of closed his doors last fall. When i asked him why he said " These people are crazy ! I can't take it anymore. They will put me in an early grave. "

I've got a past customer that was pretty decent. All around good to deal with but a bit promiscuous. For some unknown reason she has to shift to shift from one contractor to the next. She called me in again last month. Her last carpenter bailed halfway through the job. Mulled it over for a week or two and decided that enough of the red flags were up & took a pass on the job. It's overall good work but the warning signs are there. It was probably a good call. About three weeks later she had somebody working there that she had imported from 500 miles away. Apparently she had burned through all of her local options ?

Anyway, i've got a ton of war stories but there's one point that i really would want to emphasize:

Learn how to size your perspective clients up before ever setting foot on a job. Know what to expect from them before hand. Know yourself. Work within your range. Know what you can deal with and what you won't be able to tolerate from a customer.

It only takes one bad job to put you under. There's no shame in taking a pass on a job where you're out of your depth. It's terrible to say, but if you have to ask advise on how to bid a job then you probably don't know what you're doing.

Bear in mind ..... you have a moral & legal responsibility to follow through once you place a bid on a job. No excuses allowed.

OUCH! Well, you're probably right about the not knowing what I am doing part, except that I know how to do a room, and I know how to do a house. this is simply a matter of degree. and I bid the job so high I probably won't get it anyway.