Plan B.

In every task there is an essential tool. It is often refereed to as plan B. It has been decades sense plan B and even C, D, and even E have been so important, maybe as important as feeding your family.

many of us were taken by surprise by the fall of metal, weather it be tin or gold. Let me say this is not as uncommon as most believe. I personalty believe it is not over yet.

Alternate plans can soften the fall. There is a point at which scrapping of any kind becomes mute.

Back up plans can be as simple as another skill, or something related such as learning ebay /craigs list. If you don't have a backup plan now is the time.

I know most of you guys do this a lot more than I do. Also study the economics of it more than me. So I ask why is it this low right now. What would make it go lower?

I measure the economy on small business equipment purchases. If business is good, places will purchase new trucks/vans, or new computers, or something....

Right now, a lot of local businesses are actually purchasing trucks older than the ones already in their fleet. I see a lot of 90s trucks, and even a fair amount of 80s trucks. With computers, they're having me keep the old ones as long as they can, and are buying refurbished when they can.

That's a very bad sign. That shows that money is very tight, and they're not expecting it to get any better. For scrap, since no new products are being purchased, steel isn't needed. Now, there aren't no new products, but since there is less demand, less steel is needed, lowering the value. A commodity is worth exactly what somebody will pay for it. Since steel isn't really needed, nobody will pay much for it. That trickles all the way down, from the steel mill, to the large yards, to the feeder yards. By the time that it comes to us, the guy with a pickup truck, there isn't much room left.

I always love to learn new things. If I never use it, it's still a skill. I'm studying up for a CDL, even though I doubt I'll ever use it. But, it's something to learn on the weekends, and gives me another option should the need arise. If the times get tough, I'll be more than willing to hop on the tractor for a neighbor, or work in town, or whatever is available. It's always a good idea to diversify. When the times are tough, it's essential.

My view of pricing was always much more simplistic. Scrap prices and fuel prices are tied at the hip. When diesel hit nearly 5 bucks a gallon I was getting 14 a hundred for scrap cars. As fuel crept down so did scrap. The higher fuel costs are, the more it costs to mine and refine new ore, so the more the foundries will pay for scrap. There are of course all kinds of economic factors that determine the prices you'll receive, but the one that anybody can monitor with little effort is fuel. This is course merely my subjective opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by dsroten

My view of pricing was always much more simplistic. Scrap prices and fuel prices are tied at the hip. When diesel hit nearly 5 bucks a gallon I was getting 14 a hundred for scrap cars. As fuel crept down so did scrap. The higher fuel costs are, the more it costs to mine and refine new ore, so the more the foundries will pay for scrap. There are of course all kinds of economic factors that determine the prices you'll receive, but the one that anybody can monitor with little effort is fuel. This is course merely my subjective opinion. :)

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Scrap prices are pretty simple. The world is in the economic dumpster and stopped building.

If scrap prices were tied to fuel prices food and shipping prices would have droppped along with scrap prices.

There is a money war going on to determine the world reserve (trade) currency. eastern block (Russia/China) against the western block thus the appearance of the "Brick" banking system and the Asian central bank system both developed in the last 5 years. When China decides the U.S market becomes irrelevant the SWHTF.

More then 2/3s of the worlds potential consumers are in the Asian sector of the World. China is spending Trillions of our trade dollars to modernize Africa central and south America, "for what reason"? to make them consumer nations, and to eliminate U.S. buying power and world currency domination. one of the very few threats to China's world economic domination.

Western nations are 5 or 10 year planners, eastern nations are 100 year planners.

I don't study economics but around here everything is booming. All the customers that I have are busier than ever. I have friends that are business owners and they cant find enough help to finish the huge projects that are going on. My dumpsters are rented out non stop on new construction projects. My father in law delivers lumber and he is working 70 hours a week trying to keep up with the demand for new lumber. Steel is in the dump and scraps yards are going out of business. My recycling company is in its 4th year and I couldn't be any happier.

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Originally Posted by ResourcefulRecycling

I don't study economics but around here everything is booming. All the customers that I have are busier than ever. I have friends that are business owners and they cant find enough help to finish the huge projects that are going on. My dumpsters are rented out non stop on new construction projects. My father in law delivers lumber and he is working 70 hours a week trying to keep up with the demand for new lumber. Steel is in the dump and scraps yards are going out of business. My recycling company is in its 4th year and I couldn't be any happier.

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Where is here?

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Originally Posted by olddude

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Scrap prices are pretty simple. The world is in the economic dumpster and stopped building.

If scrap prices were tied to fuel prices food and shipping prices would have droppped along with scrap prices.

There is a money war going on to determine the world reserve (trade) currency. eastern block (Russia/China) against the western block thus the appearance of the "Brick" banking system and the Asian central bank system both developed in the last 5 years. When China decides the U.S market becomes irrelevant the SWHTF.

More then 2/3s of the worlds potential consumers are in the Asian sector of the World. China is spending Trillions of our trade dollars to modernize Africa central and south America, "for what reason"? to make them consumer nations, and to eliminate U.S. buying power and world currency domination. one of the very few threats to China's world economic domination.

Western nations are 5 or 10 year planners, eastern nations are 100 year planners.

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This is pretty much spot on. It doesn't matter if your LOCAL market is booming.....everyone forgets that this is a WORLD economy that drives things derived from "scrap". Manufacturing is down globally as is demand (because of faltering economies across the board). MOST scrap ends up overseas at the manufacturing centers. They have put more restrictions on imports (China especially) and China in particular is "focusing on internal recycling rather than importing"...ie they are manipulating this market just like they have the currency market for some time now...they have a plan to usurp he US $$ as the de facto currency for world trade (seriously, this has been shown OVER AND OVER the last several years and you can read this or hear about it in any number of news outlets).

They are playing to WIN...and we are allowing it to happen. All markets are cyclical too...metals had a HUGE run for quite some time...it has to pull back eventually and then it will climb again. Precious metals are directly affected by stocks...stock market UP, precious metals down....BECAUSE it is driven by the INVESTOR $$$$, not other real factors such as manufacturing. It is opportunity cost, more money in stocks, means less in precious metals, hence prices fall.

I do not claim to know markets...far fomr it...but that is basic economic theory....the currency manipulation is far far more complex. I guess business school served me well somewhat LOL

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Originally Posted by HipoGear

Where is here?

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Mid Michigan

Currently ... things seem to be looking up where i am. ( Coastal Maine ) The wealthy are spending a little more liberally and it's even starting to show in the upper middle class & middle class. The market for new things is picking up. The market for used/refurbished is sluggish & prices are dropping.

There is still a strong demand for used vehicles and prices seem to be a bit higher than they ought to be. Probably has more to do with the effects of government regulation here. ( Long story )

Globally ....it seems iffy. They had a bailout plan in place for Greece but it was saying on the news today that things aren't looking good there. The weakest member of the European union may collapse. Question is: Will it create a domino effect ?

Spain would probably be next, soon followed by the UK & a number of smaller nations. Germany would probably be left as the "last man standing."

Is there a shift in economic power to Asia ? Yep .... you betcha ! They've made some pretty good decisions and have positioned themselves to surpass even our economy.

If you define war as simply being "a competition for resources" then a state of war exists between our two nations. The battlefield is in the board rooms and the generals are the CEO's of major companies. Unfortunately .... our guys became lazy,corrupt, incompetent,and complacent. Their guys are lean & hungry with a will to win at all costs.

As in any war there will be winners & losers and the outcome is never assured.

We really ought to think about a plan B in case things don't work out for us. The guvmin't is the guvmin't and it's gonna do what it's gonna do. There's not much we can do about that but we can try to position ourselves as individuals so that we don't get hurt as badly.

What i would say is to think about the hierarchy of needs. If you had to cut back to just the basics of every day survival what would be those things most important to you ? Would they be water,food,shelter,medical,fuel ? What other things are vital to keeping things running at minimal levels ?

Think of how this applies to your business. Obviously, if you had a party supplies & decorative items store it would be one of the first victims of a recession. What if you owned a grocery store -or- gas station ?

Think about your skill set. Highly skilled people that are uncommonly good at what they do are more highly valued than general laborers without skills.

I remember a story from the Great Depression: The gist of it is that for the first fifty years gasoline had to be pumped by a service station attendant. ( That was law.) During the depression many service stations would only hire someone with a college degree. It's not that you needed an advanced education to do the job. It was simply that there were 1000 applicants for every job opening and it was a way of cutting down their numbers. Being a " grease monkey " didn't give you a lot of status but it might have made the difference between getting through the rough times and starving to death.

IDK ... long wandering post but the Old Dude has a point. Have a something to fall back on in case things go sideways.

I can only add that I truly hope we are totally wrong. But before you call us crazy remember the definition. Doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting a different result. The very thing our government has been doing for over 50 years.

I have some input here that should give you some on the ground validations to your questions, at least it did to me. I toured Europe by car (thousands upon thousands of miles in 18 days) in lieu of going home to my wife at the near end of my combat tour. I had been stabbed and thus went on leave for a few weeks. This was in October 2008.

Here is what I noticed: Spain was a literal disaster area. Trash service was minimally functional, landscaping was not happening and even the beaches and things were full of garbage. Spain was experiencing a internal market implosion of labor vs wards of the state. At that time unemployment was estimated at 28%, it is worse now.

Greece functionally seemed just fine, people were eating, laughing and carrying on as per usual. It however became pretty obvious there were alot of people out of work for an entirely different reason. They wanted more for less. Greece for the last 400 years has been a textiles and fishing nation. Many attempts at skilled labor, factories even Peugot tried to get a factory going. The biggest issue for them is education, a fundamental difference between them and Spain.

This same situation is playing out in the United States. We have 45 million unskilled workers and maybe 10 million of them have managed to keep the same job for a year. The quality is so far down it's becoming desperate for the trades. Employers all have the same grief. "We want to pay you...if you'd actually show up." They also suffer in skilled trades, everyone thinks college=easy money, 20 somethings the world over were told this is true. It could not be further from the truth. They are neither skilled nor smart. Nobody wants an employee that generates problems, they want problem solvers, this is not the case with our working age college graduates as a whole.

Ethics are another problem, drug use, thievery, attitude problems, laziness, attendance. Recognize this stuff? It's everywhere, and because it's so pervasive it's reduced even smaller businesses to outsource their labor involved processes to countries who can get it done and meet their targets. I don't really want to beat the corporate drum here but as much as I'd like to justify bringing jobs back to America...is that even feasible with two or three generations of functionally retarded people who without the aid of their smartphone cannot solve simple every day problems? Can't read a map, can't multiply, can't show up on time...can't check or change the oil in their car. Can't can't can't. But that's the actual problem. Mike Rowe is ABSOLUTELY correct in that skilled trades are the ONLY way to recovery in this country, because farming out our children to the most expensive babysitters in the world (universities) in hopes that knowledge sticks is laughable. You know it's bad when you seek out a patent lawyer and the first thing he does is check GOOGLE...I'm sorry I didn't seek you out so you could regurgitate an answer from the internet.

We want change, well...have to BE that change, it's the only choice, and no choice at all.

Olddude's "brick" is actually BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC

I know its more than just oil but oil is a good indicator of economic activity and here's a map that shows really the clash of national economies (The EIA had a better map earlier that showed that only the U.S. and China were using more than 10 million barrels a day, Japan was in 3rd at around 4 million). Still get part of the same feeling with this map.
International - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

AGW- Nice "field work" observations in Europe during your tour. Great observations about the American work force. My friend in my bedroom town works in a place that finishes out specialized vehicles (don't say anymore because people might be able to track it down). Let's just say its not assembly plant work and each finished unit has a certain amount of customization to it. He's been there between 15-20 years and has seen increasing levels of turnover (this company runs ads--or at least they've done so within the last year--on late night cable channels trying to recruit workers). What my friend says is that a majority of the new people don't last long because of two reasons, 1) they get tried of working regular hours. When this place is busy with contracts its not uncommon to work 6 days a week, or 2) they simply don't have the skills to make and fit pieces into these vehicles (how many times does the company tolerate someone wrecking expensive pieces of s.s. or holding up/stopping production because pieces don't all work together). And this is in a basiclly middle-class metro were most people have finished high school. The talent pool is shrinking...

I took a few minutes to dig up our current labor force statistics. These are all available with the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the DOL, online.

Lets start with the basics, From ages 16 through 62 only 62.9% of this country works at all, even part time. That means of the not yet retired, but old enough to work populations more than a third of them don't work at all.

Of this 62.9%, 6.2% of them are currently unemployed seeking employment (This is the figure used commonly to reference unemployment rates).

If you want to get right down to it, that's 9 million people and change currently seeking employment.

6.1 million working people are below the prevailing minimum wage. Roughly 4% of the working population isn't even making federal minimum wage, these are mostly your food service industry workers.

The average education level of a AT minimum prevailing wage worker is 13.5 years, meaning they have graduated high school and have had some college.

7.7 million people have multiple jobs. Of these, almost half are recorded as unskilled labor.

The highest unemployment rate coincides directly with the highest skill levels. Doctors, Dentists and Lawyers all clock in with the highest rates among unemployment by job category.

The reality is even further proffered as follows.

42% of this country reports no individual income at all. Less than 20% of these no income individuals are married, more than half have at least one child.

To make up for this 42% of America with no money to speak of it breaks down as follows:

(I had to drag this up from the Social Security Administration website, and their reporting mechanisms are through the IRS)

12 million people receive SSI. That is, income derived from non-retirement age prerequisites, such as disability. Interesting statistic, DOJ reports that in 2014 they prosecuted more than 250,000 cases of defrauding Social Security.

If you were to derive a simple and possibly not as accurate statistic about Food Stamps based on overall working age population you could say 18 million working age, not disabled people draw Food Stamps.

If you were to take all this intelligence on labor statistics you could say that 2/3rds of us work for 1/3rd of us. Now, that is a bit misleading, because your wife might be a stay at home mom, this is understandable but it nonetheless is part of a statistic. The things we are truly interested in are this...

A little over 40% of the living population in America works at all. less that 15% of the population is considered "in retirement" having been of correct age but with reported income. That means, for all intent, nearly 50% of this country doesn't work. When you apply this generalization to other countries...we are awfully lazy.

What I gathered from all this, we spend an awful lot of money on social programs for no returns on the investment at all. now, I'd rather we not have a war on poverty instead I think we should really go after education, and skills, and maybe start teaching etiquette in high school again...

I think we could fairly say that a lot of the problems revolve around " entitlements". There's a certain worldview (left of center) that states:

A: All people have certain inalienable human rights. ie: The right to access the healthcare system.

If you live in our society you're "entitled" to receive a number benefits from the government as long as you meet certain criteria. The cost is NOT a consideration ! This is the morally right thing.

B: The world is not even. That's not right. It's the correct role of government to level the playing field by harvesting the fruit of the labor of those producing something & re-distribute it to those who have less.

While this may ultimately be the right thing they just aren't factoring in the economic impact. Economics knows nothing of right & wrong. It only knows numbers. If the numbers are good the system works. If the numbers DON'T add up the system is bound to collapse in upon itself.

Greece is heavily socialized. They've been racking up a huge debt to keep their entitlement programs afloat but the time has come to pay the piper. They can't keep refinancing their debt anymore.

Spain's version of Social Security is going bankrupt because there aren't enough working people paying into the system.

You see it all over Europe where the worldview is that the purpose of the government is to provide for you from " Cradle to Grave".

We have it here in the states as well. We recently took on a huge entitlement obligation with Obamacare. Our projected debt is now something like 17 trillion before we reach a balanced budget ?

This really isn't a political or moral issue. It's strictly economic. Unless something majikal happens this can only turn out one way. :(

My plan b is to save all my copper if times get lean around here ill sell if not its going twards a new house with some acreage. When i first started my business saving the copper was a safety net for if things didnt pan out. I now have roughly 1000 lbs as i did have to sell 233lbs when prices nose dived but as they are recovering my stash is also. #1 goes out the door right away #2 gets packed in beer boxes and tucked away each box averagea 20 lbs easy to move store and stack.

my Plan B is simple....always has been this

ADAPT...if you are not learning something new (a new skill, new knowledge, new way to do something or a new product to sell, produce or whatever), then you will be run over. The only people that survive to any degree are the ones that stay ahead of the crashing wave or ride it. I have changed industries several times in my working career. I constantly learn new technical skills (computer, online marketing, etc). I never EVER can stop moving to the next thing...if I do X then I am planning Y already.

You have to make your own things happen. I work for Charles Jones INC...I might happen to be paid by X corp while I am in my "tour of duty" with them. Know the rules of the game where you can play...you are a number to all of them, so your loyalty should be the same...if the opportunity cost to stay on is more than it is to move on, then move on. Maximize the time you have here on this Earth. This is not personal, it's business....don't they tell you that? Well it goes both ways.

Up your skills, learn something new every day and implement it. Your knowledge of your chosen field should be VAST and BROAD....you don't have to know everything, just some about everything...let the other guys specialize and use their talent. This should tell you that you have to lead, not follow.

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Originally Posted by armygreywolf

I have some input here that should give you some on the ground validations to your questions, at least it did to me. I toured Europe by car (thousands upon thousands of miles in 18 days) in lieu of going home to my wife at the near end of my combat tour. I had been stabbed and thus went on leave for a few weeks. This was in October 2008.

Here is what I noticed: Spain was a literal disaster area. Trash service was minimally functional, landscaping was not happening and even the beaches and things were full of garbage. Spain was experiencing a internal market implosion of labor vs wards of the state. At that time unemployment was estimated at 28%, it is worse now.

Greece functionally seemed just fine, people were eating, laughing and carrying on as per usual. It however became pretty obvious there were alot of people out of work for an entirely different reason. They wanted more for less. Greece for the last 400 years has been a textiles and fishing nation. Many attempts at skilled labor, factories even Peugot tried to get a factory going. The biggest issue for them is education, a fundamental difference between them and Spain.

This same situation is playing out in the United States. We have 45 million unskilled workers and maybe 10 million of them have managed to keep the same job for a year. The quality is so far down it's becoming desperate for the trades. Employers all have the same grief. "We want to pay you...if you'd actually show up." They also suffer in skilled trades, everyone thinks college=easy money, 20 somethings the world over were told this is true. It could not be further from the truth. They are neither skilled nor smart. Nobody wants an employee that generates problems, they want problem solvers, this is not the case with our working age college graduates as a whole.

Ethics are another problem, drug use, thievery, attitude problems, laziness, attendance. Recognize this stuff? It's everywhere, and because it's so pervasive it's reduced even smaller businesses to outsource their labor involved processes to countries who can get it done and meet their targets. I don't really want to beat the corporate drum here but as much as I'd like to justify bringing jobs back to America...is that even feasible with two or three generations of functionally retarded people who without the aid of their smartphone cannot solve simple every day problems? Can't read a map, can't multiply, can't show up on time...can't check or change the oil in their car. Can't can't can't. But that's the actual problem. Mike Rowe is ABSOLUTELY correct in that skilled trades are the ONLY way to recovery in this country, because farming out our children to the most expensive babysitters in the world (universities) in hopes that knowledge sticks is laughable. You know it's bad when you seek out a patent lawyer and the first thing he does is check GOOGLE...I'm sorry I didn't seek you out so you could regurgitate an answer from the internet.

We want change, well...have to BE that change, it's the only choice, and no choice at all.

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Very very good analogy !

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Originally Posted by webuyselltradestuff

my Plan B is simple....always has been this

ADAPT...if you are not learning something new (a new skill, new knowledge, new way to do something or a new product to sell, produce or whatever), then you will be run over. The only people that survive to any degree are the ones that stay ahead of the crashing wave or ride it. I have changed industries several times in my working career. I constantly learn new technical skills (computer, online marketing, etc). I never EVER can stop moving to the next thing...if I do X then I am planning Y already.

You have to make your own things happen. I work for Charles Jones INC...I might happen to be paid by X corp while I am in my "tour of duty" with them. Know the rules of the game where you can play...you are a number to all of them, so your loyalty should be the same...if the opportunity cost to stay on is more than it is to move on, then move on. Maximize the time you have here on this Earth. This is not personal, it's business....don't they tell you that? Well it goes both ways.

Up your skills, learn something new every day and implement it. Your knowledge of your chosen field should be VAST and BROAD....you don't have to know everything, just some about everything...let the other guys specialize and use their talent. This should tell you that you have to lead, not follow.

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Road map to survival. Maybe even success.

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Originally Posted by Scrappah

I think we could fairly say that a lot of the problems revolve around " entitlements". There's a certain worldview (left of center) that states:

A: All people have certain inalienable human rights. ie: The right to access the healthcare system.

If you live in our society you're "entitled" to receive a number benefits from the government as long as you meet certain criteria. The cost is NOT a consideration ! This is the morally right thing.

B: The world is not even. That's not right. It's the correct role of government to level the playing field by harvesting the fruit of the labor of those producing something & re-distribute it to those who have less.

While this may ultimately be the right thing they just aren't factoring in the economic impact. Economics knows nothing of right & wrong. It only knows numbers. If the numbers are good the system works. If the numbers DON'T add up the system is bound to collapse in upon itself.

Greece is heavily socialized. They've been racking up a huge debt to keep their entitlement programs afloat but the time has come to pay the piper. They can't keep refinancing their debt anymore.

Spain's version of Social Security is going bankrupt because there aren't enough working people paying into the system.

You see it all over Europe where the worldview is that the purpose of the government is to provide for you from " Cradle to Grave".

We have it here in the states as well. We recently took on a huge entitlement obligation with Obamacare. Our projected debt is now something like 17 trillion before we reach a balanced budget ?

This really isn't a political or moral issue. It's strictly economic. Unless something majikal happens this can only turn out one way. :(

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Good analogy. The Primary problem is, where is the interest in solving the problem. This thread has half a dozen posters out of 20,000 around the world.

I know this is a scrap metal forum not a political one but politics has a direct effect on each scrapper ie. prices and ability to put food on the table. To many individuals in this country and around the world just turn off their tv or computer when its time to go to the mail box for their check.

Countries with the made in (made in China) label have always lead the world. look back at history and follow the standing of that country in the pecking order have always ruled the world. with out that label we are dependent on the countries who's name is on that label. UK, Germany, The U.S. Japan ect. all were at the peak of influence when their label was a representation
of their ability to produce products.

Our job as scrappers is to provide some of the material to produce those products and there in lies the direct correlation to scrapping and politics.

I have always been concerned about the effects of our social welfare system and the difference between a hand out and hand up. JFK said it best, Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. If our society believed this, it would solve many of our economic, political, and social problems. Childhooddream hit on another ingredient for our problems. Not only is our government controlled by debt and living beyond its means, but many citizens are living in the same manner.

My plan B is the same as my plan A, plan C, etc. I am debt free and this in itself is a great asset to ensure survival. My focus in retirement is self sufficiency. Hunting and fishing have been a big part of my entire life for recreation and now it provides additional food. This year I started my first garden, a disaster but hopefully I will get better with time. Learning something new everyday is a priority. I was never a mechanic so now after tearing things apart and admitting defeat, I hire a mechanic. The difference for me is helping the mechanic with the repairs. This way I learn tricks of the trade that might help with the next breakdown. I am sure this strategy has saved me hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

My business plan is pretty simple: scrapping and farm restoration. For the farm restoration side of the business I look for things that others do not have the time, equipment, or desire to do on their own. Showing a customer how much money they can make in the long run by paying me is a huge part of my strategy.

Now for the safety valve of my lifestyle, something I have not talked about or seen on the forum. I do a lot of bartering and yes I pay taxes on it. After all I have a responsibility to help pay for social welfare, Obamacare, multiple cell phones for those on welfare, etc. It is assumed many on this forum participate in this type of economics but do not want to admit it publically so I will. Labor is traded for the use of equipment, hunting rights, or garden vegetables. Firewood is traded for used oil, loaning my trailer to have someone spray weeds, and cleaning out sheds for scrap. I sell farm machinery for farmers in return for references, donate antique equipment for the PR, and trade metal art for horse tack. This morning I helped a neighbor with computer issues and helped them advertise several items on Craigs List in return for the use of their pontoon boat. My college wrestling buddies are planning a walleye fishing/beer drinking tournament latter this summer and we needed a stable boat for the occasion. (Clarification, I am far from an expert on computers but to a 75 year old farmer I am a guru.)

So bartering seems to be my safety net and one that will serve well during bad economic times. It is amazing the types of deals that one can make and how beneficial they are to all parties. My guess is that if the economy goes to pot, this will be the most valuable plan B.

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Originally Posted by Patriot76

I have always been concerned about the effects of our social welfare system and the difference between a hand out and hand up. JFK said it best, Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. If our society believed this, it would solve many of our economic, political, and social problems. Childhooddream hit on another ingredient for our problems. Not only is our government controlled by debt and living beyond its means, but many citizens are living in the same manner.

My plan B is the same as my plan A, plan C, etc. I am debt free and this in itself is a great asset to ensure survival. My focus in retirement is self sufficiency. Hunting and fishing have been a big part of my entire life for recreation and now it provides additional food. This year I started my first garden, a disaster but hopefully I will get better with time. Learning something new everyday is a priority. I was never a mechanic so now after tearing things apart and admitting defeat, I hire a mechanic. The difference for me is helping the mechanic with the repairs. This way I learn tricks of the trade that might help with the next breakdown. I am sure this strategy has saved me hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

My business plan is pretty simple: scrapping and farm restoration. For the farm restoration side of the business I look for things that others do not have the time, equipment, or desire to do on their own. Showing a customer how much money they can make in the long run by paying me is a huge part of my strategy.

Now for the safety valve of my lifestyle, something I have not talked about or seen on the forum. I do a lot of bartering and yes I pay taxes on it. After all I have a responsibility to help pay for social welfare, Obamacare, multiple cell phones for those on welfare, etc. It is assumed many on this forum participate in this type of economics but do not want to admit it publically so I will. Labor is traded for the use of equipment, hunting rights, or garden vegetables. Firewood is traded for used oil, loaning my trailer to have someone spray weeds, and cleaning out sheds for scrap. I sell farm machinery for farmers in return for references, donate antique equipment for the PR, and trade metal art for horse tack. This morning I helped a neighbor with computer issues and helped them advertise several items on Craigs List in return for the use of their pontoon boat. My college wrestling buddies are planning a walleye fishing/beer drinking tournament latter this summer and we needed a stable boat for the occasion. (Clarification, I am far from an expert on computers but to a 75 year old farmer I am a guru.)

So bartering seems to be my safety net and one that will serve well during bad economic times. It is amazing the types of deals that one can make and how beneficial they are to all parties. My guess is that if the economy goes to pot, this will be the most valuable plan B.

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every one needs to take a serious look at this post! A LESSON IN IMPROVING YOUR POSITION IN TODAY'S WORLD.

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Originally Posted by olddude

Good analogy. The Primary problem is, where is the interest in solving the problem. This thread has half a dozen posters out of 20,000 around the world.

I know this is a scrap metal forum not a political one but politics has a direct effect on each scrapper ie. prices and ability to put food on the table. To many individuals in this country and around the world just turn off their tv or computer when its time to go to the mail box for their check.

Countries with the made in (made in China) label have always lead the world. look back at history and follow the standing of that country in the pecking order have always ruled the world. with out that label we are dependent on the countries who's name is on that label. UK, Germany, The U.S. Japan ect. all were at the peak of influence when their label was a representation
of their ability to produce products.

Our job as scrappers is to provide some of the material to produce those products and there in lies the direct correlation to scrapping and politics.

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If it's okay i'm going to steer it back just a bit ....

AGW brought up the issue of food stamps & social welfare as being a part of the problem. I broadened it out a bit by saying that "entitlements" are a huge part of our budget. That would include Social Security,Medicare,Mediacaid,VA benefits, Disability benefits,Food Stamps,WIC, Fuel Assistance,Obamacare, and so on.

It's all the same thing. Please don't get mad when i say this, but there really is no difference between the man drawing an unemployment check and the gent who earned his VA benefits. Under our system both men are equally entitled to receive benefits.

The core problem is simply that we as a nation are living beyond our means.

Now ... let's be fair and pick on those right of center:

The American military industrial complex & the global projection of American military power is considered to be of paramount importance. When it comes right down to it we are the police force of the world. Without the stability we provide the world would be a very different place. The Hitlers, Stalins, and Saddam Husseins would run wild and beat up on everybody.

This is also a huge part of our budget and another thing we cannot afford. We're borrowing money to keep our navy afloat. ;)

Do you see what i'm saying ?

It really doesn't matter which side of the political fence you're on. It doesn't matter if your agenda is bread or bombs. Both sides have been equally reckless & irresponsible in running up a huge debt.

Therefore: This can't be solved politically.

It really is an economic problem. My personal opinion is that it's just a matter of time before our debt swallows us whole and we are forced into bankruptcy. It happened when the economic system of the former USSR collapsed. There's a very real possibility that it may happen to us as well. The cold war may have been a Pyrrhic victory for us. It's true that they died, but we may have been mortally wounded in the conflict as well.

That's where plan B comes in.

First I will agree with most of your points, except one:

Now ... let's be fair and pick on those right of center:

I have to admit I am a little confused by the statement. I thought the far, far, left of center have been in control for the last eight years. Am I missing something. Our present administration has racked up a larger debt than all of the previous administrations combined. Maybe more education on my part is needed because I fail to see your point.

I agree that our government is living beyond its means, but if I have a choice between our military spending and our social welfare system there is no doubt in my mind. If you are one that depends on government handouts, I feel sorry for you.

Without getting political (against forum rules) I will end this with three letters: FDR and those that follow his footsteps.

The US Social System is not the cause of the US's problem!

The cost of social programs e.g. food stamps are MINIMAL compared to where the money REALLY is going. 49 cents of every dollar spent worldwide on military is spent by the US military. Corporate welfare in forms of subsidies, tax breaks etc is astronomical.

The entire idea of capital gains taxes being lower than earned income tax or general INCOME TAX period is INSANE!

Who benefits? The rich, always the rich and the corporations (owned by the rich). Who makes the rules? The rich in government. And the poor ones are being bribed to go along.

Few excemptions apply.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem that a business owner gets rich. But the exploitation is out of control.

Instead of spending all that money on the military spend it on infrastructure. Imagine 1 Trillion spent over 10 years to rebuild crumbling bridges, highways etc?

High paying jobs, money in circulation, people NOT dying because the **** bridge collapses under them.

THAT would get the economy back up and running.
Cut student loan interest rates to the same rate banks pay to borrow money from the feds.
Encourage education.

I could go on and on.

I had dozens and dozens of employees over the year. It's a freaking NIGHTMARE what's out there.

One example:
Set up a group interview for 6 applicants once.
3 did not show up at all.
2 were late.

1 during the interview was bragging how much she likes to smoke weed.
1 at the end of the interview asked what the job actually is and what we do.
(After the CL ad said: entering books into our databases, we are a huge book seller online and walking through the warehouse with 210,000 books on the shelves to get to the offices.

The quality of employees and applicants is atrocious!!!!!

APH - Is your concern military spending or the work force? From this perspective, I have never seen a veteran that did not meet my expectations.

Glad to hear some truth! Social support systems are a drop in the bucket compared to corporate welfare and war.

Just imagine if we begin to spend on infrastructure. Employment (good jobs) goes up. Spending goes up, creating even more jobs. And dare I say it??? Scrap prices go up too.

I appreciate every person that has served our country in the military. I really do. But, we are not fighting wars over atrocities committed all over the world. We fight war for profit. Period! Every foreign military base we operate is protecting oil fields.

Sorry Old Dude. I'm not the one who started this though ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patriot76

APH - Is your concern military spending or the work force? From this perspective, I have never seen a veteran that did not meet my expectations.

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I do not have a problem with any individual who served his country.

I do have a problem when this service was to line rich people's pockets. Cheney got richer than he already was of the various wars. His Halliburton connections are well documented. I am not here to get into political discussions merely the problems that lead to a very unhealthy economic situation. At lest for 97% of the people.

It goes MUCH MUCH deeper.

Kids being told from earliest days on they can do no wrong, be what you want to be, nobody can tell you what to do.

One of the DUMBEST things I remember is a Kid without legs playing high school football. I mean WTF????

America has to get real. people need to stop pampering their kids.
Life is a bit.h. Learn to deal with it.

Work hard you can do well. I have been a business owner since I was 23.
Back then someone once told me, when i complained about the neighbor who was a career welfare recepient:
A healthy society and economy can and should support their poor. And who CARES if a few abuse the system.

the problem is that more than a few abuse the system or simply do not get a fair chance.
No money for school, well, ther eis always McDonalds right?

Who do our seniors HAVE to work as greeters at Walmart?
It's a disgrace that this country can not take care of the people who really need their help.

Happily send them to war. But when they come back screwed up with PTSD and what not. Aww, sorry no money!
Maybe some charity can help you.

Organizations like the Wounder Warriors Project are GREAT! The shame is that there is a NEED for them because the government can't take care of the results of their own actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aph

I do not have a problem with any individual who served his country.

I do have a problem when this service was to line rich people's pockets. Cheney got richer than he already was of the various wars. His Halliburton connections are well documented. I am not here to get into political discussions merely the problems that lead to a very unhealthy economic situation. At lest for 97% of the people.

It goes MUCH MUCH deeper.

Kids being told from earliest days on they can do no wrong, be what you want to be, nobody can tell you what to do.

One of the DUMBEST things I remember is a Kid without legs playing high school football. I mean WTF????

America has to get real. people need to stop pampering their kids.
Life is a bit.h. Learn to deal with it.

Work hard you can do well. I have been a business owner since I was 23.
Back then someone once told me, when i complained about the neighbor who was a career welfare recepient:
A healthy society and economy can and should support their poor. And who CARES if a few abuse the system.

the problem is that more than a few abuse the system or simply do not get a fair chance.
No money for school, well, ther eis always McDonalds right?

Who do our seniors HAVE to work as greeters at Walmart?
It's a disgrace that this country can not take care of the people who really need their help.

Happily send them to war. But when they come back screwed up with PTSD and what not. Aww, sorry no money!
Maybe some charity can help you.

Organizations like the Wounder Warriors Project are GREAT! The shame is that there is a NEED for them because the government can't take care of the results of their own actions.

---

Touche'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aph

The US Social System is not the cause of the US's problem!

The cost of social programs e.g. food stamps are MINIMAL compared to where the money REALLY is going. 49 cents of every dollar spent worldwide on military is spent by the US military. Corporate welfare in forms of subsidies, tax breaks etc is astronomical.

The entire idea of capital gains taxes being lower than earned income tax or general INCOME TAX period is INSANE!

Who benefits? The rich, always the rich and the corporations (owned by the rich). Who makes the rules? The rich in government. And the poor ones are being bribed to go along.

Few excemptions apply.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem that a business owner gets rich. But the exploitation is out of control.

Instead of spending all that money on the military spend it on infrastructure. Imagine 1 Trillion spent over 10 years to rebuild crumbling bridges, highways etc?

High paying jobs, money in circulation, people NOT dying because the **** bridge collapses under them.

THAT would get the economy back up and running.
Cut student loan interest rates to the same rate banks pay to borrow money from the feds.
Encourage education.

I could go on and on.

I had dozens and dozens of employees over the year. It's a freaking NIGHTMARE what's out there.

One example:
Set up a group interview for 6 applicants once.
3 did not show up at all.
2 were late.

1 during the interview was bragging how much she likes to smoke weed.
1 at the end of the interview asked what the job actually is and what we do.
(After the CL ad said: entering books into our databases, we are a huge book seller online and walking through the warehouse with 210,000 books on the shelves to get to the offices.

The quality of employees and applicants is atrocious!!!!!

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Government controlled non education system. I could survive on my SS but I don't want to just survive. The point is with 5 year unemployment plans, food stamps ect. there is no incentive to work for those who are just willing to survive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HipoGear

Glad to hear some truth! Social support systems are a drop in the bucket compared to corporate welfare and war.

Just imagine if we begin to spend on infrastructure. Employment (good jobs) goes up. Spending goes up, creating even more jobs. And dare I say it??? Scrap prices go up too.

I appreciate every person that has served our country in the military. I really do. But, we are not fighting wars over atrocities committed all over the world. We fight war for profit. Period! Every foreign military base we operate is protecting oil fields.

Sorry Old Dude. I'm not the one who started this though ;)

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I would suggest fact checking. Look into the national budget to see how & where the money is being spent. Also ... there should be a list of military bases somewhere. To the best of my knowledge there are no oil resources in Japan,Australia, or the Philippines. Those areas do have military strategic value though.

If China gets frisky Japan could suffer terrible retribution for the atrocities it committed in WW2. Australia's natural resources are absolutely vital to the continued growth of China's manufacturing base.

If i could suggest something else: Most folks fall to either one side or the other of center. They tend to parrot the talking points of the party they're affiliated with without ever giving it any real thought. Those talking points aren't always correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patriot76

First I will agree with most of your points, except one:

Now ... let's be fair and pick on those right of center:

I have to admit I am a little confused by the statement. I thought the far, far, left of center have been in control for the last eight years. Am I missing something. Our present administration has racked up a larger debt than all of the previous administrations combined. Maybe more education on my part is needed because I fail to see your point.

I agree that our government is living beyond its means, but if I have a choice between our military spending and our social welfare system there is no doubt in my mind. If you are one that depends on government handouts, I feel sorry for you.

Without getting political (against forum rules) I will end this with three letters: FDR and those that follow his footsteps.

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I'm looking back much further than the last eight years. With the exception of a few years back in the early days we've been running up a larger and larger debt since the country was founded. Unfortunately, this is what politicians of every stripe do. They tend to overspend.

It would help if we could build a broad bi-partisan consensus on what our most pressing problems are and set party affiliations aside.

To put it another way: If our economic system collapses nobody gets what they want and we all suffer. Let's face down the common threat and then we can go back to bickering over politics later ?

Infighting & finger pointing will not solve this problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrappah

If it's okay i'm going to steer it back just a bit ....

AGW brought up the issue of food stamps & social welfare as being a part of the problem. I broadened it out a bit by saying that "entitlements" are a huge part of our budget. That would include Social Security,Medicare,Mediacaid,VA benefits, Disability benefits,Food Stamps,WIC, Fuel Assistance,Obamacare, and so on.

It's all the same thing. Please don't get mad when i say this, but there really is no difference between the man drawing an unemployment check and the gent who earned his VA benefits. Under our system both men are equally entitled to receive benefits.

The core problem is simply that we as a nation are living beyond our means.

Now ... let's be fair and pick on those right of center:

The American military industrial complex & the global projection of American military power is considered to be of paramount importance. When it comes right down to it we are the police force of the world. Without the stability we provide the world would be a very different place. The Hitlers, Stalins, and Saddam Husseins would run wild and beat up on everybody.

This is also a huge part of our budget and another thing we cannot afford. We're borrowing money to keep our navy afloat. ;)

Do you see what i'm saying ?

It really doesn't matter which side of the political fence you're on. It doesn't matter if your agenda is bread or bombs. Both sides have been equally reckless & irresponsible in running up a huge debt.

Therefore: This can't be solved politically.

It really is an economic problem. My personal opinion is that it's just a matter of time before our debt swallows us whole and we are forced into bankruptcy. It happened when the economic system of the former USSR collapsed. There's a very real possibility that it may happen to us as well. The cold war may have been a Pyrrhic victory for us. It's true that they died, but we may have been mortally wounded in the conflict as well.

That's where plan B comes in.

---

Please do not lump ss and medicare for those who worked all their lives and paid into a health care system and a retirement system that in today,s dollars should be worth over 800,000 for the average social security medicade investor. Those who did not pay in to FICA should not be listed as entitled. entitled means just that. I am Entitled to SS + interest and I am entitled to medicare because I payed for it and am still paying for it for over 55 years.

It is not my fault the government stole our money and used it on those not "entitled" to it.
It is a propaganda trick to lump welfare and other subsidies to those who didn't earn it and call it all entitlements.

There is actually an entire building in Quantico Va. for the sole purpose of holding file cabinets of Government IOU to the SS system to keep those who stole it out of jail. I know this sounds like tin foil hat stuff but it sadly isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olddude

Please do not lump ss and medicare for those who worked all their lives and paid into a health care system and a retirement system that in today,s dollars should be worth over 800,000 for the average social security medicade investor. Those who did not pay in to FICA should not be listed as entitled. entitled means just that. I am Entitled to SS + interest and I am entitled to medicare because I payed for it and am still paying for it for over 55 years.

It is not my fault the government stole our money and used it on those not "entitled" to it.
It is a propaganda trick to lump welfare and other subsidies to those who didn't earn it and call it all entitlements.

There is actually an entire building in Quantico Va. for the sole purpose of holding file cabinets of Government IOU to the SS system to keep those who stole it out of jail. I know this sounds like tin foil hat stuff but it sadly isn't.

---

To the best of my knowledge they started re-directing the funds coming into the Social Security Administration ----> to the U.S. treasury & issuing IOU's to SSA back during the Nixon (r) administration ?

Anyway, they broke the deal.What's done is done. That happened long before i started paying into the system & i've been working for close to 40 years now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HipoGear

Glad to hear some truth! Social support systems are a drop in the bucket compared to corporate welfare and war.

Just imagine if we begin to spend on infrastructure. Employment (good jobs) goes up. Spending goes up, creating even more jobs. And dare I say it??? Scrap prices go up too.

I appreciate every person that has served our country in the military. I really do. But, we are not fighting wars over atrocities committed all over the world. We fight war for profit. Period! Every foreign military base we operate is protecting oil fields.

Sorry Old Dude. I'm not the one who started this though ;)

---

No Apology necessary here. I am a vet, yes, but 50 yrs ago I was young and stupid. In my third tour, I suddenly realized The people we were killing and killing for were still going to be rice farmers and fishermen no matter who won. I was no longer stupid. My son will never fight a war just to make a wall streeter or banker or politician rich. I will personally escort him to Canada first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrappah

If it's okay i'm going to steer it back just a bit ....

AGW brought up the issue of food stamps & social welfare as being a part of the problem. I broadened it out a bit by saying that "entitlements" are a huge part of our budget. That would include Social Security,Medicare,Mediacaid,VA benefits, Disability benefits,Food Stamps,WIC, Fuel Assistance,Obamacare, and so on.

It's all the same thing. Please don't get mad when i say this, but there really is no difference between the man drawing an unemployment check and the gent who earned his VA benefits. Under our system both men are equally entitled to receive benefits.

The core problem is simply that we as a nation are living beyond our means.

Now ... let's be fair and pick on those right of center:

The American military industrial complex & the global projection of American military power is considered to be of paramount importance. When it comes right down to it we are the police force of the world. Without the stability we provide the world would be a very different place. The Hitlers, Stalins, and Saddam Husseins would run wild and beat up on everybody.

This is also a huge part of our budget and another thing we cannot afford. We're borrowing money to keep our navy afloat. ;)

Do you see what i'm saying ?

It really doesn't matter which side of the political fence you're on. It doesn't matter if your agenda is bread or bombs. Both sides have been equally reckless & irresponsible in running up a huge debt.

Therefore: This can't be solved politically.

It really is an economic problem. My personal opinion is that it's just a matter of time before our debt swallows us whole and we are forced into bankruptcy. It happened when the economic system of the former USSR collapsed. There's a very real possibility that it may happen to us as well. The cold war may have been a Pyrrhic victory for us. It's true that they died, but we may have been mortally wounded in the conflict as well.

That's where plan B comes in.

---

Please do not lump ss and medicare for those who worked all their lives and paid into a health care system and a retirement system that in today,s dollars should be worth over 800,000 for the average social security medicade investor. Those who did not pay in to FICA should not be listed as entitled. entitled means just that. I am Entitled to SS + interest and I am entitled to medicare because I payed for it and am still paying for it for over 55 years.

It is not my fault the government stole our money and used it on those not "entitled" to it.
It is a propaganda trick to lump welfare and other subsidies to those who didn't earn it and call it all entitlements.

There is actually an entire building in Quantico Va. for the sole purpose of holding file cabinets of Government IOU to the SS system to keep those who stole it out of jail. I know this sounds like tin foil hat stuff but it sadly isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrappah

To the best of my knowledge they started re-directing the funds coming into the Social Security Administration ----> to the U.S. treasury & issuing IOU's to SSA back during the Nixon (r) administration ?

Anyway, they broke the deal.What's done is done. That happened long before i started paying into the system & i've been working for close to 40 years now.

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Actually I think it was before Nixon. Ill do some research and find out.

Duplicate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olddude

Actually I think it was before Nixon. Ill do some research and find out.

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It's okay old Gent. Doesn't really matter. The point is that they robbed the retirement fund so it ceased to be. I know i've been paying the Social Security tax for my whole working life. To me: It's just another tax. I don't feel as they owe me anything.

This need not apply to anyone else: My personal feeling is that i want to have as little to do with the Guvmin't as possible. I don't want to be dependent on any of their entitlements.

That's part of my plan B. :)

I spent the evening researching SS and first found something very interesting. Many of the "official" government sites came up blank. The sites by others are so convoluted and busy calling each other liers you get nothing,

Here is what I was able to dig out.. I was able to read the jist of the original bill written and passed in the mid 30s. It is written so loosely that the government can do any thing with the money and get away with it even though laws have been passed in later years making it absolutely illegal to use those funds for any thing other then SS. The use of IOUs to "borrow" the funds actually and legally does not admit borrowing or taking (stealing) and is why they are used. the government fully admits the IOUs are worthless. The ss was set up at 1% of the first $1400 of your wages but, as they realized how easy it was to bleed new taxes under the right
Deception. that 1% was raised 4 times before Roosevelt left office. (imagine that).

In the middle 60s Lyndon Jonson merged the SS tax into the general fund. In the mid 80s a huge rise in ss tax was passed under the guise of supporting the baby boomers retirement, this raised 2.5 Trillion dollars. Some ting politicians refer to as a wind fall. (most of us real folks call it a savings account) and of course since it went to the general fund it was spent. we had, after all, wars to fight and, freebees to pay for to those "disadvantaged" folk.

When you hear about all the money SS going to baby boomers here is a fact to consider, of all the funds payed into the non existing ss fund, because of the mid 80s mega increase in FICA tax Boomers paid 4/5ths of the total amount paid from it's inception up to today.