Gold prices dropping - Page 5

Originally Posted by unknownk

Try taking gold worth over $10K to any airport in the US on a flight going outside the country, you will be searched and detained until the local IRS agents come. I can paypal funds to anybody in the world under $10K a shot and nobody will even notice.

Actually try taking $10k worth of paper money out of the US. Matter of fact, try flying outside the US, or into the US with anything worth more than $10k and you have to declare it. But suggesting that you will be searched and detained by the IRS agents is just plain wrong. The IRS are not government agents to start with, if you are transporting large amounts of cash, and there were any question, it would be customs or ICE that would detain and do the preliminary investigation, with the Secret Service or possibly the FBI being contacted after, but not the IRS.

I can ship $10k or $100 million for that matter, worth of any precious metal to anywhere that there is not a trade embargo against, in the world without issue so long as I have the proper paperwork for. However, if you attempt to paypal someone over 9,999.99 you will not only be flagged for review by the IRS, but if you do it more than a few times you will probably also be investigated.

Even when I worked for United Air Lines, I used to see Americans detained for not declaring the amount of cash they were bringing into or leaving the country with. I worked at the International terminal, outside, on the ramp and used to watch Customs literally walk their dogs OVER the bags as they were laid on the moving belt that transported them to inside the terminal, they would sometimes find contraband, or in many cases, money well in excess of $10k, the dogs would actually smell it. They would confiscate the contraband or cash and deal with the owners in whatever way they were suppose to.

I can promise you that I can ship well over $10k worth of gold with far less hassle than I can fly somewhere with $10k worth of cash and legally declaring it. Matter of fact, if you want to get technical, it is the same exact paperwork you have to fill out if you are transporting $10k worth in money or $10k worth in jewelry you are wearing. Yet it's far easier to walk around with a $20k gold watch than it is with $10k worth of $100 dollar bills.

Originally Posted by unknownk

"In practice, if you're a US Citizen taking your own bullion OUT of the US, and its current value is more than $10k, expect to be detained at the airport and heavily questioned (and threatened) by the IRS... and don't be surprised if they audit you for the next 10 years. Under new US tax laws/IRS regulations, taking ANY assets out of the country is considered prima-facie evidence of tax-evasion."

Again you are wrong, the IRS might scrutinize you financial information, if you do not properly declare what you are leaving the country with, but it's Customs or ICE, the FBI or Secret Service that will be investigating you. The IRS is not part of the DOJ. Please consider this:

The IRS is a government corporation created by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to a congressional statutory grant of authority (see specifically IRC § 7801). The IRS is not an agency of the United States Government but it is declared by statute to be a federal agency of the United States. The United States Government was created by the Constitution as a central government representing the interests of the several States. Congress, however, is delegated authority over its territory and other property, i.e., the United States, pursuant to Art. 4 § 3(2), Congress' power to make "all needful rules and regulations" over its territory, i.e., United States' property or real estate. Acting in this capacity, Congress is not acting as a central government for the several States but is acting in the capacity as a state legislature over its territory and other property. The federal income tax is not pursuant to Art 1 § 8(1) but Art. 4 § 3(2). The Secretary in IRC § 7805 is delegated the authority to enforce Title 26 with "all needful rules and regulations." The Commissioner has only the authority the Secretary delegates to him as he is an inferior or subordinate public officer. No authority to enforce the internal revenue laws is delegated to him by statute. A Treasury Order specifically names the Commissioner to be the Chief Executive Officer of the IRS. The IRS is a government corporation which administers taxes laid within United States' territories and insular possessions and upon those who are subject to Congress' Art. 4 § 3(2) legislative jurisdiction, i.e., the "citizen of the United States" wherever resident.

So long as you properly document and claim what you are taking out of the country, filling out all the required paperwork prior to leaving the country, you can transport gold as a private citizen. You can ship large quantities of gold if you are a business and transporting or shipping outside the country. The key is to make sure you are doing everything legally, but if so, there is nothing to prevent you from doing so. The laws you are trying to insinuate would prevent someone from doing what you suggest, pertain only to people who do not declare their valuable items or cash, and are trying to leave the country with them so as to evade taxes. The difference is fairly clear and easy to understand.

So you are totally off base when you claim that taking ANY assets out of the country is evidence of tax evasion.

I am enjoying this thread and all the debate, but please keep the facts, facts and not state things as being true when they are not. If we keep this thread honest, we might find that it produces some valuable and accurate information that people can rely on. I for one have learned a bit already.

And just another thought for you to mull over. If I wanted to keep a large amount of any precious metal off shore, there are more ways of doing so than there are ways of moving cash. Because spot prices are the same all over the world, I could simply sell my gold here in the US, and buy gold somewhere else, and could do so using a banking instrument like a letter of credit, and could use my letter of credit like a loan which would enable me to claim the interest against my taxes at the end of the year. Or, as a business, I could start an amex account and simply deposit my gold into my amex account, and withdraw the same amount in physical form wherever in the world I wanted to.

Scott

Originally Posted by unknownk

In the US you can have $250K insured by the government in a bank, that bank goes bankrupt you will have to fight over whats left in assets to get some of it back if there is any left.

You are wrong, the FDIC which insures your deposits, or the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, is NOT the Federal Government, it is an agent of the Federal Government and is backed by the Credit of the Federal Government. And you don't have to fight over your funds, since 1934 when it started operations, not one person has ever lost even a penny of FDIC insured deposits. But that doesn't mean people have not lost money. The FDIC only insures up to $250,000 per person, unless you have other accounts that are considered different types of accounts, then you could be insured for more. If you have more than $250K on deposit and the bank goes solvent, you will be able to recover what the FDIC insures, up to $250k.

If you have 1000 ounces in a safety deposit box, and the bank goes solvent, you will still have 1000 ounces in the safety deposit box that you can recover, without it having to be insured by anyone. Matter of fact, you could purchase your own insurance for however much you wanted. No limit.

Scott

Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

If you have 1000 ounces in a safety deposit box, and the bank goes solvent, you will still have 1000 ounces in the safety deposit box that you can recover, without it having to be insured by anyone. Matter of fact, you could purchase your own insurance for however much you wanted. No limit.

Scott

Scott is right on that one Unknown, as he said you can purchase YOUR OWN insurance for the items in the safety deposit box. It would be great if everyone read the post BEFORE jumping on each other and trying to start fights...

Originally Posted by unknownk

Yes you can purchase your own insurance (on pretty much anything) but the safety deposit box is uninsured by the bank. Some people might think the bank is responsible for items stored there.

Paper burns, gold doesn't

Enough said

Scott

Originally Posted by unknownk

True. Ever run across any gold coins or bullion that has been melted in a house fire? Just wondering.

Funny you should ask...

I had a customer that had a lump of what I would say looked like moon rock. It consisted of many different metals including but not limited to gold, silver, copper, etc. At some time in their families history, a house had burnt down. This metal mass was the result of a fire that had been hot enough to melt the coins into a mass of fused metals, and partially alloyed some of them.

Needless to say I was able to refine the metals, and to my surprise there was actually a large amount of gold and silver. I would never have guessed it just by looking at it, perhaps by weight but I still was surprised after everything was said and done.

There is a great story about a couple Nobel Peace Price winners during WWII who saved the gold out of which their medals were made, by dissolving them in Aqua Regia. Check this out for an interesting reading:

How aqua regia saved Nobel Prize medals from the Nazis | A Schooner of Science

Scott

Great discussion with great information. I'll reiterate from another thread I had posted in. If I am going to hoard silver for the "---- hits the fan" scenario, It is going to be U.S. minted pre 64 dimes. It is recognized the world over as 90% silver content, and the small quantity is great for trading. You need a pound of wheat and the guy wants 10 cents U.S. silver for it? Have fun with your silver round and cutting it up. Or maybe the guy will talk you into some other stuff that you don't need to make up for that silver round. Not to mention that 90% coins can be bought and sold for just a nominal price difference from the dealer unlike the extra price that is commanded from a silver round.

I wish I had the silver hoard that I had about 5 years ago. (give or take, things get fuzzy). I started buying silver at around $5 to $7 some time previous to that and I saw some writing on the wall of some things to come. I had STUPID disposable income at the time and kept buying whenever and wherever I could. I ended up with over $1100 face value in U.S. 90% silver coinage. Several hundred in U.S. 40% I can't even recall how many silver rounds and bars and 8 oz rounds and full pound rounds I had. I kept buying all the way up to about 12 or 13 dollars an ounce. I was buying some gold coins at the time as well. Not a crazy amount but was buying the "right ones at the right time" (more on that later).

Fast forward to whatever the time was, but silver ended up around $25 on the way up and I had fallen on hard times due to various circumstances. I was able to unload for a tidy profit. That helped the "fall to earth" be a little softer. It helped as well that the guy I was dealing with to move my silver at the time was so sure that silver was over rated that he had been shorting it and was paying me 75 cents OVER spot for all that I could bring in. He had to keep covering his sell orders.

The above is an example of buying low and cashing out when things get bad. The housing bubble breaking and the resulting economy was a big factor in the collapse of the "Greg empire" but that hoard of silver made it sooooo much easier.

OK, the right coins at the right time as mentioned above. Let's say that you want to invest in some U.S. minted gold coins right now. (just to get this back on track with the gold discussion). To do this properly, you will need some historic collectible coin prices. (I keep all of my old red books for this purpose). Let's say that (making up numbers from here on out) gold is at $800 an ounce. If you look at a coin price list (the red book). Every coin will have a minimum price based on the precious metal content. Let's say no matter what 1/4 ounce gold coin you are looking at sells for $200. There are other gold coins that list at say $400 in the lowest condition. Fast forward to gold at $1600. Guess what, all of those same weight coins are now worth $400. You happen to have $400 to invest in a gold coin. Grab that one that was at $400 before the rise in price. (the reason to hold the old red books). Now, when the price of gold drops, assuming that the collectible market recovers, you still have the collectability of that coin above the scrap value.

I hope that last tip about buying gold coins was coherent. I had the day off and the rum is flowing freely tonight.

I tend to avoid the """news"""" these days, can anyone put the catalyst for today's gold & silver price jumps into a nutshell for me?

Or was it just PFM?

No end in sight keeps dropping