Aluminum Alloy Identification...

Originally Posted by AAInt

I dont make them. I own a facility overseas that makes them. I'm not a scrapper or a metal enthusiast. Just business.

I am utterly baffled why you believe that someone who is a scrapper or metal enthusiast would be able to help you. If this is a real company in operation, why don't you have a metallurgist working with or for you to facilitate your intentions? Why have you not sought the proper method of preparing your Al alloy prior to attempting to find a buyer? Why have you not utilized the volumes of experience and knowledge you have access to using simply google searches?

As well, have you donated to this site? That at the very least seems like the proper thing to do, since you are part owner in this company and you must have some funds to invest in asking people for help. I'm not sure if you understand the value of the information you are requesting. I would expect you to either hire someone with the knowledge and experience, or pay them a consulting fee to help you realize your intent, or at the very least offer to pay them in some way.

We help each other on this site. As a business, I have donated to this site, I believe it only right considering the wealth of information at my fingertips or using a simple forum search. I would suggest you do the same if your intent is to use the information, that has real value to someone like you if what you have stated is in fact truth. You would stand to make a sizable profit, and that profit would be as a direct result of asking questions here and receiving valuable answers.

Just the information that has been freely given in this thread in regards to your question has value. For that information alone, even if you never glean any other useful information, you should donate something to this site so that it might increase it's financial independence and continue to provide a place for all those who have helped you, and those who contribute to the knowledge base of this site.

Considering how very little good solid information is floating around the internet, in this industry, free of charge. And considering that this is probably the single most important internet resource in regards to scrap metal, I would encourage you to make a reasonable donation to this site if your intent is to profit from the information you receive in regards to your questions.

I have owned several businesses, yet still I cannot fathom or reason you seemingly utter lack of understanding in regards to what you are asking. Or in your complete lack of knowledge as to how this industry works, specially since you live in the United States.

One more suggestion. You may benefit from contacting the US Embassy in the country of your companies origin. They have people on staff, who's sole intent is to help facilitate trade between the United States and other countries. They should be able to provide you with a wealth of information, as they have been trained and work to facilitate business with companies like the one you say you are part owner in. I spent many years in the international trade arena, and that's really what it is like an arena. I cannot even begin to express what an important resource the American Embassy can be in regards to international trade.

My comments might seem snarky, but I am asking them seriously as it really does shock me that you seem to have no knowledge about the industry your company is involved in. If anything I have said or suggested is outside what is actually true, then please state it and I will apologize, happily, in this thread. I tend to say exactly what I think and feel without reservation, my intent is not to insult but instead understand what seems to be incongruent to me in regards to your business and your questions.

Scott

Yeah that alloy dosen't line up very well huh
My best guess is you have 6061 with low Ti and high Cr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy

The manganese levels are high because it's UBC AL
they typically run around 1% manganese 1% magnesium.
It may matter to buyers but I cannot say for sure.
Not sure here but if the only things being put into the pots is cans then you have a can alloy...

Originally Posted by AAInt

We're making this alloy from UBC at a facility I'm a part owner of overseas. I would like to market this here in the U.S. but I'm having trouble identifying it's series.

Most likely the United States has different alloy requirements.

If this is All from drink cans, you should probably contact BALL metal, as they produce a large percentage of the Al cans used for drink production. They would be able to tell you what the exact alloy composition should be.

I think what most people find confusing is that while you state that you own this company, it doesn't seem like you understand the type of alloys your company is making. Did I misunderstand something? Do you really not understand the industry you take part in or who your buyers would be?

Understand your input material, it's origin, composition, contact those companies they deal in All as they would have the answers you are looking for, or end manufacturers such as BALL metal that produces Al cans for drinks.

Simple, logical, not sure I understand why this seems so difficult for you unless you are just a broker looking to sell a companies product in the US.

You should also realize that it is a very expensive proposition to refine Al, as it requires electrolytic refining using a specific mineral in it's molten state. If your Al was refined, it would be far easier to locate buyers. If the company you are having as broker for has the ability to also refine, you might have a lucrative and viable business in that you could send them Al scrap, have it refined and then sell to anyone in the world that uses Al. As a broker, you could easily make a g9d living if dealing with large quantities.

And in certain states, you can be paid to buy back Al cans, etc. And then sell the product to a company to refine, or have it refined yourself then selling the refined product to an end user.

I find it exceedingly difficult to imagine any situation where you might own a company overseas, that deals with Al alloy scrap and not understand your Al alloy well enough to understand your market. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Alternatively, you could have your Al assayed, get a certificate as to the alloy composition and type, and then locate the proper market.

Regardless, there is something you are either not being honest about, or are utterly clueless about, that you have not expressed. Being honest is paramount if you honestly intend to do any business in the metal markets in the US. The laws are strict, and importing metals also very strict.

Scott

They're a lot of angry people on here. It's amusing.

I know 0 about the technical details of alloys, etc.

I purchased a sizable stake in a small smelting operation last year, that was defunct before my cash injection. Why? Because I wanted too.

The facility is in a developing country, and is not some state of the art facility with 30+ employees and high tech equipment that you would find in an industrialized country like the US.

The guy in charge of overseeing the alloying knows 0 about American trade names or series, our Asian buyers know 0 about them either. For this particular alloy, they simply refer to it as AL95.

Why would I spend 10k on a XRF handheld when we clearly have a Spectro machine on site, that printed out the posted results? 10k so I can scan and have the exact North American trade name pop up? No thanks.

I want to market this stuff to American buyers because I want the security that comes with a contract, our current clientele are inconsistent, spot buyers, traders, not a good revenue base, and not a good way to sustain a business.

I can't market this stuff to an American audience calling it AL95 can I?

Many thanks for those who pointed me in the right direction.

Originally Posted by AAInt

They're a lot of angry people on here. It's amusing.

No, not angry at all. But when you take on a tone like you are entitled, deserving of the answers to the questions you have asked, without any contribution either monetary or informative, while at the same time admitting that you have absolutely no understanding about the industry you have stated you own a business in, it seems to me you are looking for someone to hold your hand and give you all the information you require, and yet acting a bit entitled at the same time.

I was probably the most outspoken in regards to how you seem to be behaving. And I can tell you honestly that I am not, nor was I ever mad. That's silly. Being in business myself, and being a small operation that does not have the most advanced equipment nor 30+ employees I am very aware of just how important this online resource is to my business. Not only in the information that this site retains, but also in the business connections, and friendships I have made here. We help each other, but all your posts consists of one aspect of this forum, and that is you looking for people to answer all your questions, that's it. I see no reciprocation at all. You cannot expect someone to give you good solid advice when that also includes suggesting you should also be educated in your industry of choice, or seek help of those whom you might hire to represent you, or anything else that will help you. I firmly believe it's better to teach a man to fish, than to give him a fish. The give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life is relevant.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I know 0 about the technical details of alloys, etc.

Okay, thanks for stating that. But that also does not mean it's our fault, nor our responsibility to educate you in a business you bought into, and do not understand. Best thing you can do for yourself and your business, prior to attempting to sell anything, is to educate yourself on what it is you are doing. Not only on the alloys your company produces, but on best business practices, international trade, etc etc etc. You were given this information and advice free of any charge, and not forced to pay anything, even while behaving in a way that leads some to believe you have this feeling of entitlement. To be honest, and this is my own personal opinion, I cannot wrap my head around the fact you are attempting to conduct business in the metal industry without any knowledge at all. What are you going to tell a buyer about your material? How do you honestly think it will sound to a buyer if you tell them you know nothing about your own operation, or the alloys your company produces. Just because you have an aluminum product does not mean people will buy from you. And if you do not understand your own industry, do you really believe it will make them feel confident about any product you have for sale? You have nobody that knows about the alloys, no metallurgist, no technical staff that any customer can speak with. I wouldn't buy a product like that, not if the seller had no clue what it was, not if the person who was representing the sale had no clue about their industry, and specially if it was not properly certified, identified, assayed, etc. It is your lack of knowledge, your ignorance, that will prevent you from selling your Al alloy, not the alloy itself. You can take that however you want to take that, ignore it and excuse it as someone being mad, but that's good advice regardless if you want to accept it or not.

I sell metals, many different types, that I produce myself, in my lab, without any employees helping me. I understand what I am selling down to the .001 percentages of metals that are associated but not worth removing for their intended purpose. I create alloys of specific metals for specific purposes, many times alloyed with more exotic metals or elements to give them a specific color, strength, flexibility, rigidity, etc. As a matter of fact, I am asked many times by my customers advice on how they might use, or what alloy would be best for whatever application they are using it for, and I need to be able to answer these things. Again, if you do not understand your industry, or specially the alloys you produce and wish to sell, then you are really just pissing into the wind and allowing it to spray all over you, and that on purpose. If you want to be successful, I would suggest you start conducting yourself in a way that projects that, and backing it up with understanding what it is you are selling, how it's made, what it's used for, how much you can produce and on, and etc.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I purchased a sizable stake in a small smelting operation last year, that was defunct before my cash injection. Why? Because I wanted too.

A small smelting operation could be just a melt furnace running off propane, and one guy melting scrap. Think about what you are stating you wish to do. You want to command as high a price as possible for a recycled material your smelting operation has produced without proper assay, certification, knowledge on where it came from, what it is used for, etc. If you were a company in the United States which used a specific Al alloy to produce a particular part, or particular metal item would you purchase material for production, where your customers loyalty is specifically related to the quality of the product you are producing? It's been posted already how very important it is to understand your material intimately, and yet you label those who give up this hard won information as being mad, without any thanks at all to the information that has been provided to you.

Originally Posted by AAInt

The facility is in a developing country, and is not some state of the art facility with 30+ employees and high tech equipment that you would find in an industrialized country like the US.

I am a one man shop, I started my business on my own, I bought all my own equipment much of which I had to design, and build myself. I do not have a state of the art facility, nor any other employee, AND I live, and operate my business in the United States. Just because we are in the United States does not mean we are operating large businesses. Yet I have educated myself, totally by myself, by reading, engaging other people in my industry, working the material myself, and seeking to educate myself in what it is I need to know in order to make my business a success. Most of the people you are speaking with on this forum, regardless of where in the world they come from, have done exactly the same thing as I have. Read some of the other posts and you quickly realize that we are a community of people who help each other, who freely give our time and knowledge much of which is proprietary so that we might help others. Or we read what others have posted, or post questions ourselves and then discuss these subjects in threads like this one. I might be beating a dead dog on this one, but you have not discussed anything much, you demand information, you lack tact or acceptance and contribute nothing of value to this forum. Perhaps you will in the future but thus far, every one of your posts has been about information you are looking for. Imagine if we all acted as you have, would you be here if that was the case?

Originally Posted by AAInt

The guy in charge of overseeing the alloying knows 0 about American trade names or series, our Asian buyers know 0 about them either. For this particular alloy, they simply refer to it as AL95.

If the guy making the alloys knows 0 about American trade names, or series, then why are you not giving this person whatever information that he needs in order to know? If you contact the American Embassy in the country of origin, as I have stated before, you will find not only a wealth of information they are willing to give you, for free, but people who know these things because their specific job function is to facilitate business between the United States and other nations. You should be assigning proper names to the material you produce, or at the very least relating them to some sort of standard. That just seems like bad business to me, it really does, I'm not mad just stating and pointing out what should be painfully obvious to you already. Stop playing a victim because you don't know, and do something about your situation, like learn about the business you keep stating you bought into. That should be a no brainer.

Originally Posted by AAInt

Why would I spend 10k on a XRF handheld when we clearly have a Spectro machine on site, that printed out the posted results? 10k so I can scan and have the exact North American trade name pop up? No thanks.

An XRF is not going to give you trade names, it scans the material using X-Rays, reads the isotopes, and then reports the values in percentages of the alloyed material. This would help you be identifying what scrap should be smelted/melted together, and what should not. It will help you verify your alloys prior to having them certified as meeting a specific standard or alloy composition. It seems to me you probably should have researched exactly what an XRF scanner is, prior to discounting it all together. To me that just seems like someone ignoring good advice, discounting it even while not understanding it at all, and then complaining that it was offered in the first place. Please don't forget, you are the one standing there with your hand open, offering nothing in return. That is good advice, again, take it or not but the advice was intended to help you, not hurt you.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I want to market this stuff to American buyers because I want the security that comes with a contract, our current clientele are inconsistent, spot buyers, traders, not a good revenue base, and not a good way to sustain a business.

That isn't a bad reason at all for wanting American buyers, however, you seem to also miss that most manufacturing, even metal, is done elsewhere and not in the United States anymore. Why not seek customers in China, which has a far larger market and it sounds like it might be closer to where the underdeveloped nation is, where your little smelting/melting operation exists. This means less shipping costs, far larger potential to sell your goods and you can draw up contracts that will require you to produce as specific amount of your alloy on a regular, ongoing bases. Just because you do business outside the United States, it does not mean you cannot find better markets in industrialized nations which might be a far better business relationship. And if I were you, I would hold your customers to a contract instead of conducting your business in the way you currently are. Contracts are used in business transactions all over the world, regardless if you consider those countries developed or not. Do you not realize that you can write a contract for literally anything, so long as you are complying with whatever laws you must in the country you are conducting business in? I used to buy and sell all kinds of things, all over the world, on a contract basis. Also, many contracts are for single sales, specially in the United States. Considering that metals fluctuate, sometimes drastically, nobody in the metal industry wants to be locked into a contract at any specific price. The price of Al could drop tomorrow, and probably will. Instead, they usually contract, if on an ongoing basis, referring to specific spot prices. This is why it is important to know what your profit margin needs to be in order to make your business a success. Do you not realize that Al is dropping in price all the time, over the past 5 years in fact? Please refer to this 5 year chart on Al prices:

Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals

Even over the short term, refer to these prices:

Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals

Nobody in their right mind is going to contract for the purchase of a metal product that fluctuates as much as Al does, for any length of time, for any set price. But they might if your pricing is related to the current spot price. It would be exceedingly stupid on their part. Can you understand why I am pointing out the obvious flaws in your business model, the one you proposed in this thread? These are points that should be intuitive to you, that you should know intimately and yet do not. I am left wondering if you really own any part of a smelting operation, or if you really believe you can conduct business in the way you have proposed, while remaining utterly ignorant to the metal industry in the United States, the prices that your metal sell for, the current 5 year trend which is moving downward. Seriously, you should have known these things before investing in your smelting operation, it might have prevented you from investing in a metal business that is currently on a downhill trend so far as value is concerned.

And I have to ask, do you know what your currently profit margin is? Your labor percentages? What value you might be taking away or adding by not ensuring your metal is a specific standard? These questions and many more you should already know and be aware of if you expect to sell your product and make any profit. For example, you should know what it costs in time, labor, electricity, materials etc to melt a specific amount of a specific type of metal or alloy, and then you should have a min markup that relates to those expenses and a projected profit percentage you need to make in order to re-invest and expand your business, or retain those monetary assets for other reasons. You just seem to be seeking the highest price someone might pay for your material, but do you know for a fact that covers all your costs? If not, then you could be loosing money by selling even at the highest prices, if the cost of your scrap material, or the cost to produce it in whatever form your customer requests, is more than what you can sell for, then you are screwed but you should know this long before purchasing, because your profit exists in what price you are purchasing the material for. I set a standard, I will not pay over a specific percentage for the material I process because I know that I will make enough to cover my costs and make a decent/fair profit.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I can't market this stuff to an American audience calling it AL95 can I?

You can sell it as scrap Al, and no worries. You might even end up making more not incurring any cost, and selling the material right to the end user who might also have the equipment to refine it, as Al scrap. You should seriously consider this.

Originally Posted by AAInt

Many thanks for those who pointed me in the right direction.

It's nice of you to thank people, but maybe you can contribute information also that we might not have, or something useful/helpful.


Scott