E-Scrap Refining

I think that 100# is not really all that much. get 1000# and I would think you would do better.

If it is all gold I would think in the $25+ range. its hard to tell with mixed ram so guesstimate low. With this number in mind you can see its only $2500. thats not worth there time to load it into the grinder.

Eric

I was contacted by a knowledgeable person on this and he said that this is not the case that with the addition of tinned and DDR2 ram the number is much lower. the amount of gold used in the new DDR2 is much much less

Originally Posted by zaige1982

I appreciate it. I didn't really expect it to be that high per pound. I've talked to a couple of refiners that have a 100 lb. minimum weight on the same item.

You need to do some reading of Noble's about representing your material and differences in refiners, etc,etc.
When it comes to refiners, buyer beware.

http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/scrap...processed.html

Originally Posted by zaige1982

I appreciate it. I didn't really expect it to be that high per pound. I've talked to a couple of refiners that have a 100 lb. minimum weight on the same item.

You must always remember the buyers on these forums and elsewhere are not running charities for the scrap industry. They have to have some meat and be able to pass on some meat too.

There is money you just need the volume to get the best results.

Eric

Originally Posted by etack

I think that 100# is not really all that much. get 1000# and I would think you would do better.

If it is all gold I would think in the $25+ range. its hard to tell with mixed ram so guesstimate low. With this number in mind you can see its only $2500. thats not worth there time to load it into the grinder.

Eric

I was contacted by a knowledgeable person on this and he said that this is not the case that with the addition of tinned and DDR2 ram the number is much lower. the amount of gold used in the new DDR2 is much much less

Perhaps my turn to chime in.
With all do respect, all gold memory is MUCH, MUCH lower than this. Well, I take that back. It COULD be worth this in a much HIGHER market. Allow me to precede with that... however...

On our side of the industry, mark ups are typically 3-8%... 8% on memory for our purchase price is roughly $1.50 on $13.85. A refined value of approximately $15.35/lb in the market. Keep in mind there are deductions, processing fees, transportation, storage, labor, etc. This is also assuming PROPER sampling was done and the material is clean. If you want to dispute, buckle up and wait another 45-100 days to get paid... that means up to 280 days to get a lot fully closed out (worst cased, but it HAS happened)

Keep in mind when you ship to a refiner you are paid on a FUTURE market, the only thing guaranteed is the date not the pricing.

The vast majority of our suppliers have much greater profit than we do as a company... for example I have customers tell me they bought gold memory at $6.00 per lb off of craigslist and flipping it to us for almost $14.00 per lb!! Not to mention NO RISK!

This information is offered to us, I never request it. And when they tell me, I don't price gouge or "count their money"... I support them in their successes and look forward to growing our relationship with them. I really do enjoy seeing people succeed through hard and honest work - The American way.

I will add a little bit to what Ewasted said .To send your product to a refiner you will have to meet the weight requirements dictated by the terms of your contract. Before a company sends any product to a refiner or is offered any terms by the refiner they must first submit to a application process that consists of background, Financial standings ..etc…etc… and usually this will be the basis for your contracted terms. In short the more you have to offer the refiner over time will reflect your overall relationship and terms with them.

An EXAMPLE to minimal weight requirements required for your first shipment 15mt of circuit boards is usually required if you were going to just send memory they would probably ask for a minimal 4mt and if you were going to just send IC’s/CPU’s then they would ask for 2mt .

In short all said and done the mill will absorb 20% + , less if you are a large ongoing supplier. Those numbers do not include any labor, shipping or finance charges. Those numbers don’t reflect the difference in the metals market during the average 120 days it takes to mill your lot.

There are smaller refiners that claim to refine your material and will accept less then industry standard weights but for the most part unless you’re sending them High Grade product ( Pins, Cpu’s..etc..etc..) EPA standards restrict the amount of E-waste incinerated annually in the USA by any one registered company and these companies usually just middle man your product to one of the large out of country mills.

I hesitated in posting this, but screw it...



I'm not gonna try to discourage anyone from sending their stuff in to a refinery direct, but I think you should all be well aware of what the end results can look like. This was a very nicely mixed load, some motherboards old and new, couple hundred pounds telecom, couple hundred pounds of bracketless finger cards. After the refinery took their cut, I cleared $2 a pound. And that's before I paid for shipping, or any of my labor or time.

The refineries that will deal with small guys absolutely drool at the opportunity to rape them. Representation costs $1000+ for a load this size. An independent assay of the samples that the refinery provides is $600 bucks, and even then, the best you're going to get is either the opportunity to move on to an umpire assay, or a split to start. The refineries have all the leverage, and every motive in the world to cheat you, because even if you prove that they cheated you, they still win.

My first load I made money on, but when I factor in lost opportunity in using that money elsewhere (the buyers on here pay fast, a refinery is a minimum 45 day process, you're lucky to have a check in hand by day 55) it's hard to say. My second load is the one posted above, and I got kicked in the balls (you guys can do the math on what the buyers on here were paying for the material I sent in if you really want to know how bad, plus you have to figure in paying for the materials BEFORE gold dropped to the $1295 on my lock in date). My third load should be settled end of this month, and my fourth just got dropped off on Monday.

The bigger players get a better rate on refining (I'm paying $1.25 a pound, but have been told by my refinery that .85 is possible) and of course on shipping too (small loads might cost .35ish to ship freight whereas large loads I can get down to about .10) so there is room to trim the fat, but not a whole lot. Even if my lot above was ran at .85 I'd still have lost money though.

If I get crushed on the third and fourth loads, I'm likely going to try one last load with representation, and then evaluate my options from there. I can afford to gamble and take chances at this point in my life. I'll be the first to admit, I used to have a serious gambling issue, and all this is doing is scratching that itch in a little more socially acceptable manner than playing black chips in Vegas. If I do this, my parents think I'm using my degree wisely (BBA Production Management), if I go to Vegas with the same $15k I'm working with, I'm insane and irresponsible (maybe a little of both?).

What was the difference in the first load to this one? You said you made money on the first. Why did you use Sipi? Did someone recommend them or did you look into others thinking they were the best to go with? Why no payout on platinum ? Their percentage on silver looks a bit low. Is that their normal rate or was it base on the weight you brought them ? Did you remove as much steel from your material as possible ? I do remember reading that the going rate for representation was somewhere around 1% of the payout. If this is correct it would have not cost much of anything, maybe Scott or Eric can chime in on this.
One final question, if your third and fourth load is like this last one I wouldn't expect different results, why did you go back to them ?

Sorry Bill hopefully the results on the next load comes out in your favor. Thanks for sharing with us as it hopefully helps others out here.

Originally Posted by BRASSCATCHER

What was the difference in the first load to this one? You said you made money on the first. Why did you use Sipi? Did someone recommend them or did you look into others thinking they were the best to go with? Why no payout on platinum ? Their percentage on silver looks a bit low. Is that their normal rate or was it base on the weight you brought them ? Did you remove as much steel from your material as possible ? I do remember reading that the going rate for representation was somewhere around 1% of the payout. If this is correct it would have not cost much of anything, maybe Scott or Eric can chime in on this.
One final question, if your third and fourth load is like this last one I wouldn't expect different results, why did you go back to them ?

Sorry Bill hopefully the results on the next load comes out in your favor. Thanks for sharing with us as it hopefully helps others out here.

Virtually no difference between the first and second loads. The third load is purely green motherboards mixed socket. The fourth load is a mixture of green and colored boards. I've talked to Ledoux and Introspecte on representation. The way it was explained to me, you pay by the hour + travel. The going rate is about $350 an 8 hour day, by the time you figure in travel, it works out to about $1000 bones through either place. Maybe someone with larger loads can get representation on a recovery basis, but no one is going to touch representation for 1% of any load under 10-20k pounds I don't think.

The silver payout amounts may or may not be low, but it's kind of a moot point. There isn't enough silver there to fight over. The real money is in the Gold. As for Platinum, I was told while doing my research for this adventure that there isn't enough in ewaste to bother with.

I went back to Sipi because they are reasonably close to home, and I can get a discounted freight rate using a business partners fleet of expediting vehicles to get my materials there. There are 3-5 other refineries that I could be dealing with, but at this point I'd like to get things straightened out with Sipi if possible. There is another person I talk to that is using what he calls a "refinery" in Kentucky, but I can't get the exact name of the place out of him, and can't find any reference to KY refineries anywhere on the net. If anyone knows who he is referring to, I'd love to know. Same with any other suggestions. I also think that there is nothing going on here that isn't going to happen at any other refinery located in the states. Most of these places are just middle men that are actually shipping further up the ladder (Xstrata in Canada or one of the European refineries). I haven't talked to Xstrata yet, but have been told to expect 10-20k# minimums to be paid on a recovery basis.

From talking to people, what happens is they shred your materials, sort in to (allegedly) equal piles that should represent a good mix of the load, and then pull a sample to incinerate and process. From there, the math is worked out and applied towards your whole load. There's a million different ways for them to take advantage of the situation, from the selection of materials to incinerate, to the actual incineration process, to the gold % calculation and pin sample obtaining methods. Unless you're there to watch the whole thing, and know how it works, you're pretty defenseless (outside of representation). I wasn't going to waste my time having my samples ran by an independent lab, but after talking to a few different assayers, I finally sent them out yesterday. If the refineries don't think you're going to keep them honest, they will fleece you blindly is the general consensus from both assayers, and others that have went down this road. It's pretty sad that they can't do business honestly, but oh well. They really don't care. If you don't send in material, someone else will.

If, for example, I send the samples from load 2 out, and they come back in at 4 oz instead of the 2 that Sipi says, from what I understand, we split the difference, and Sipi pays out on another Oz, but still keeps the 1 Oz extra that should be recovered from the load. As you can see, they still make out like a bandit. If your independent assay falls outside of their acceptable splitting ranges, then you head to an Umpire Assay, and there is another method for determining which payout will be recovered. This whole process takes time, and time is money. Most refineries are banking on people not fighting them.

My boards were/are good and clean. I pull all aluminum heat sinks, and steel/plastic brackets/plates. I'll be glad to answer/help any one else on here that has any questions as much as I can. I'm still learning this game myself.

After the refinery took their cut, I cleared $2 a pound. And that's before I paid for shipping, or any of my labor or time.

I'm trying to understand why go thru all the hassle and stress, for $2.00 a lb. when for the same amount or more you just drop all that stuff off to a buyer, negotiate a better price based on volume and get paid same day/week. I average over 2.00 a lb for less than 100lb and $10. gas for delivery. I guess you really do like to gamble.

The silver % seems to be in line I would think that it was a bit high for the amount recovered. The interesting part is how low the Cu content was considering all the material that you remove.

I also wonder why you send in such small loads? I have a hard time justifying sending out less than 1000# to a board buyer.

Also if they are close to you why don't you represent your own boards. I never have thought that a 1% rep fee was in line for anything under $100,000.00 in recovery.

Just some friendly questions.

Eric

Originally Posted by etack

The silver % seems to be in line I would think that it was a bit high for the amount recovered. The interesting part is how low the Cu content was considering all the material that you remove.

I also wonder why you send in such small loads? I have a hard time justifying sending out less than 1000# to a board buyer.

Also if they are close to you why don't you represent your own boards. I never have thought that a 1% rep fee was in line for anything under $100,000.00 in recovery.

Just some friendly questions.

Eric

I went with the small load approach to try to establish a baseline for PM content. No real other reason.

The Cu numbers seem low, but there again, there isn't enough meat on the bone to try to fight it. You could have twice the amount of Cu, and it wouldn't affect the final numbers very much at all.

I'm debating self representation. It would require me to take a few days off from my day job, but might be worth it in the end.

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

I'm trying to understand why go thru all the hassle and stress, for $2.00 a lb. when for the same amount or more you just drop all that stuff off to a buyer, negotiate a better price based on volume and get paid same day/week. I average over 2.00 a lb for less than 100lb and $10. gas for delivery. I guess you really do like to gamble.

I got nothin' for ya lol.

I love to take shots. It's what I do. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

I don't know, I'm just one of those types of people that likes to try to figure everything out. This just seemed like a fun puzzle to work on.

Originally Posted by numbers

This thread really helps put a few things into perspective. It lets me know that the larger buyers don't have a large profit margin. I can also see that if a buyer has a lot of pounds going to a refiner, they may (or should) also have the additional cost of hedging the price in the futures market. For now, I think I will stay right where I am at sending pallets and fed-x boxes to various buyers. Thanks to Ewasted and BumpRacerX for sharing this information.

There really isn't a huge margin at all. I was like everyone else, thinking that the big players were making some serious bank, but it's totally a volume game. I have tons of respect for Mario (Ewasted) for doing what he does. It takes some serous cajones to play the game at the level he's at volume wise, and he's really on top of it.