E-Scrap Refining - Page 2

Originally Posted by BumpRacerX

I hesitated in posting this, but screw it...



I'm not gonna try to discourage anyone from sending their stuff in to a refinery direct, but I think you should all be well aware of what the end results can look like. This was a very nicely mixed load, some motherboards old and new, couple hundred pounds telecom, couple hundred pounds of bracketless finger cards. After the refinery took their cut, I cleared $2 a pound. And that's before I paid for shipping, or any of my labor or time.

The refineries that will deal with small guys absolutely drool at the opportunity to rape them. Representation costs $1000+ for a load this size. An independent assay of the samples that the refinery provides is $600 bucks, and even then, the best you're going to get is either the opportunity to move on to an umpire assay, or a split to start. The refineries have all the leverage, and every motive in the world to cheat you, because even if you prove that they cheated you, they still win.

My first load I made money on, but when I factor in lost opportunity in using that money elsewhere (the buyers on here pay fast, a refinery is a minimum 45 day process, you're lucky to have a check in hand by day 55) it's hard to say. My second load is the one posted above, and I got kicked in the balls (you guys can do the math on what the buyers on here were paying for the material I sent in if you really want to know how bad, plus you have to figure in paying for the materials BEFORE gold dropped to the $1295 on my lock in date). My third load should be settled end of this month, and my fourth just got dropped off on Monday.

The bigger players get a better rate on refining (I'm paying $1.25 a pound, but have been told by my refinery that .85 is possible) and of course on shipping too (small loads might cost .35ish to ship freight whereas large loads I can get down to about .10) so there is room to trim the fat, but not a whole lot. Even if my lot above was ran at .85 I'd still have lost money though.

If I get crushed on the third and fourth loads, I'm likely going to try one last load with representation, and then evaluate my options from there. I can afford to gamble and take chances at this point in my life. I'll be the first to admit, I used to have a serious gambling issue, and all this is doing is scratching that itch in a little more socially acceptable manner than playing black chips in Vegas. If I do this, my parents think I'm using my degree wisely (BBA Production Management), if I go to Vegas with the same $15k I'm working with, I'm insane and irresponsible (maybe a little of both?).

You honestly would do better just selling your boards to either Ewasted or myself. I feel the numbers they are giving you are Guest mated or just plain fabricated. It’s not feasible or profitable for a refiner to refine or assay such a small amount of boards. Not to mention that if they were incinerating those boards then their EPA credits ( Credits a company gets for the clean air act ) would be eaten up real quickly. Boards are low grade product compared to what most refiners in the USA are dealing with and Its hard to believe that they substitute burning boards over higher grade product.

Looking at your paperwork you posted I don’t see that they have any deductions for Beryllium or nickel witch also raises my suspicions on it being fabricated. And your copper seems low it should be around 150lbs - 200lbs .

The easy thing for me to do, and what I'm focusing on for the time being, is to buy the stuff that I don't mind sitting on and hoarding. I love Finger Cards and Silver Mylar. I'm also going to be adding Gold Connectors to the buy list on here. You guys can have all the straight up Motherboard sellers

That doesn't mean that I'm not going to continue to buy motherboards from my network of sellers, but I'd rather focus on the stuff that I know best.

Originally Posted by BumpRacerX

The easy thing for me to do, and what I'm focusing on for the time being, is to buy the stuff that I don't mind sitting on and hoarding. I love Finger Cards and Silver Mylar. I'm also going to be adding Gold Connectors to the buy list on here. You guys can have all the straight up Motherboard sellers

That doesn't mean that I'm not going to continue to buy motherboards from my network of sellers, but I'd rather focus on the stuff that I know best.

Mother boards are pretty much just crap and the newer they get the worse they get. But we have to take the good with the bad.

To get this out of the way: Yes Sirscrap.. raising one from the dead!

Ok with that said. I got a call from a fellow e-waste recycler today. He is PUUUUMPED that he is going to send his hoard to Sipi in Chicago to be refined. Prior to this post when he and I spoke on the phone I said "Listen.. the biggest question you need to ask of this company is "What is the chain of command from ball-mill to paste" He was like "Huh?"

Just FYI he has been given the local e-waste R2 buyer, he has also been given Mario's name (E-Wasted) As far as I know- he has yet to utilize either buyer.

After my own (very fast found research here btw) at the SMF.. I'm thinking he is stepping into a LANDMINE.. but he cannot be reasoned with.. Guess I will have to console myself with my checks in lightning fast time from my two, tried, true, and trusted buyers.

You can lead that horse to the water.. dunk his head in.. but if he won't drink.. he just won't drink!

I swear people want to learn the HARD way!

Thanks for the post.. it has been most helpful- from the OP and all who contributed!

The idea of making "fat $" by getting our waste refined is surely a tempting one. And for Me Chicago (where Sipi is) is about a mere 3 hour drive.
Hardest part is having your material represented. As Noble states in a post somewhere on my research travel he says "If you don't represent your material- you WILL get screwed"
Not only do you need representation on site during the process- you need someone GOOD at representing your stuff (or be good yourself)

My phone caller knows NOTHING about the refinement process and is doomed to get kicked in the slats as the OP here sadly did.

I really like your use of the qualifier of "good" it is appropriate. The representative would have to know the process well enough to know when you are going to get ripped off.

I wouldn't know if they were removing some trash liquid or the "good" stuff. 73, Mike

I do know that the buyers I use on here typically have a "price is set by ship date" policy...but I agree, it should be spelled out where there is no confusion.

Communication with your buyer is key. I have personally spoken with buyers here before I send a shipment (large or small) for the first time. If in their ad it doesn't state that- don't be afraid to ask.
I know one large buyer- that pays the price on the day of landing. If they process your order and it goes up. It stinks, but terms were disclosed. If prices go down during processing, you get the advantage on that one.

Bottom Line: Communicate with your buyers, talk with them, call them, email them, PM them. I have yet to find a buyer here on the forum that refused to answer my questions or refused to speak with me.
This is a business relationship- and must be treated as such. If you are scared to make a phone call, and go into things without asking questions.. you have learned a lesson, that maybe the next round- you will not make.

On a note of On Topic of the "Dead Sea Scroll" Topic- I spoke with the Account Manager/Business development guy on the phone at Sipi today for approximately an hour and a half. He explained the process, he answered every question I had. Whether I decide to ever go this route is only a consideration.. with nothing set. It appears things have changed there since 2013 (Time of this Original post) I have his name, cell phone and an open invitation to ask questions and probe he said. I have been offered an invitation to Chicago to see the inner workings personally, see the furnaces, spend time in the lab, watch a batch from start to finish. Note that I have spent a lot of my life around Sales People- and he is a sales person- so I take information with some hint of exaggeration and puffery.

So at the moment the gathering of information was a wonderful education today.

Originally Posted by sledge

Communication with your buyer is key. I have personally spoken with buyers here before I send a shipment (large or small) for the first time. If in their ad it doesn't state that- don't be afraid to ask.
I know one large buyer- that pays the price on the day of landing. If they process your order and it goes up. It stinks, but terms were disclosed. If prices go down during processing, you get the advantage on that one.

Bottom Line: Communicate with your buyers, talk with them, call them, email them, PM them. I have yet to find a buyer here on the forum that refused to answer my questions or refused to speak with me.
This is a business relationship- and must be treated as such. If you are scared to make a phone call, and go into things without asking questions.. you have learned a lesson, that maybe the next round- you will not make.

On a note of On Topic of the "Dead Sea Scroll" Topic- I spoke with the Account Manager/Business development guy on the phone at Sipi today for approximately an hour and a half. He explained the process, he answered every question I had. Whether I decide to ever go this route is only a consideration.. with nothing set. It appears things have changed there since 2013 (Time of this Original post) I have his name, cell phone and an open invitation to ask questions and probe he said. I have been offered an invitation to Chicago to see the inner workings personally, see the furnaces, spend time in the lab, watch a batch from start to finish. Note that I have spent a lot of my life around Sales People- and he is a sales person- so I take information with some hint of exaggeration and puffery.

So at the moment the gathering of information was a wonderful education today.

The process is not different, I'm not that far away in Michigan, and got the same offer back in the day. The Sales people are there to be sales people, and convince you to use them to refine there.

I would use them again. But only if I had representation that I trusted. The system is stacked against you unless they really value your volume. If you've got massive quantities that are sorted and represented properly, you'll probably be ok. If you're sending in a random Gaylord Box here or there, you're probably in trouble.

BumpRacerX:

Spoke with Sipi.. Guy said you are now only able to represent your own materials the first load.. after that.. they have a list of pre-approved vendors for you to choose from. Sounds like Bear Trap + Foot to me!

I am not one to speak ill of a company unfounded or at all even if founded. I am going to say what follows as something everyone who is or might consider in the future- dealing with Sipi needs to hear.

First, they are slick, they make promises and so on, but having dealt with them myself as an independent company and again with Mudlucky, you would be MUCH better served to not deal with them. They were short on gold and copper. I would have to look but on known quantity material we had processed elsewhere before they were radically off, down more than 30%, on hard drive boards they were down AT LEAST 25%...below that of nearly all buyers here at the time...

I was upset enough with the known quantity disparity that I wanted to call the Sheriff's department and get a criminal case going. Now I realize they don't have representation on this forum so what I say will likely never get an answer or rebuttal but here is part two. I hand delivered in 2014 a FULL truckload of midgrade and higher material, as in every ounce I could carry on a pickup both inside and out. I was NEVER paid, they stopped responding to my emails, hung up on me over and over until it came down to either I go back there to meet them in person and likely be kicked off the premises or let it go. My time these days is obviously better spent elsewhere so they won that one.

A while later they came to us with new sales people, talking about new management and so forth, ultimately we were underpaid, though paid promptly...except when questioned they went back and made "adjustments" to our results. I know absolutely we were screwed...a real result has no adjustment.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES DO BUSINESS WITH SIPI. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.