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Do you ever get a slight feeling of nervousness that one of your employees will strike out on their own and take customers/accounts from you? I get paranoid about that sort of thing, that's why I've only ever hired one person, a college kid that needed some part-time work.Quote:
Originally Posted by StRegis
Probably silly to think like that though...
That's why they make non-compete contracts. But don't try to do this on your own. Have a lawyer draw one up or you could wind up getting the contract thrown out in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnBone
Unfortunately (well depending on which end of it you are on), non competes are basically worthless. They are difficult at BEST to enforce and that typically is a trip to court. Generally, you can't force someone to not be able to work with the skills they have. At least this is true in the US. These typically serve as a deterrent only for those unaware of the general courts viewpoints on that. About the only time they are enforceable is when trade secrets for a business are involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
There really is only so much you can do with employees. They can leave at any time and take what they have learned with them. The best way to hedge is to keep most of the important info to yourself AND to provide EXCELLENT customer service along with the best prices you can. In the end, it is the relationship that helps keep clients.
Just an observation from of course. I just know that non competes are kinda like the signs in the parking lot that says they aren't responsible for buggy damage to your car....sounds legal and look intimidating, but doesn't hold water if you actually go to court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnBone
The trick is to pay them well and treat them right so they will not want to leave. Sure, it may still happen on occasion but mostly folks prefer to avoid the hassles of ownership if they can make a living as an employee. A non-compete can help but you have to have the cash to enforce it and even still, there are ways to get around it. Take care of your people and they will be loyal.
From Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by webuyselltradestuff
Quote:
The majority of U.S. states recognize and enforce various forms of non-compete agreements. A few states, such as California, totally ban or prohibit non-compete agreements except in limited circumstances.
I used to work in electronic security and nearly every company made you sign a non-compete. But as a skilled worker in a specialized field, I really don't think any court is going to deny you employment. Mostly they are used to discourage workers from leaving and to protect trade secrets (as previously stated).
That just is not generally the way it happens in most places if something ACTUALLY makes it to court. Judges have consistently not allowed people to restrict people from working in their industries. Again, there are exceptions, like higher level executives with trade secrets and insider info, but for the average person, it just isn't something they enforce easily. Again, you ACTUALLY have to drag someone into court and get an injunction, THEN have a trial and get the ruling. This is just not something most people will do or have the means to do. Further, damaging someone by refusing to allow them to work just doesn't happen very often as it is GROSSLY unfair and harmful to the individual...most of these "contracts" get thrown out. Wikipedia is nice and all, but use it sparingly and certainly do not take it as the truth in matters (I mean anyone can edit it, so...).Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
I personally would tell someone with a non compete (and I have signed them, laughing as I did so, knowing they couldn't enforce it) to go pound sand...I would see them in court. Again it is like the buggy thing I mentioned...most companies say they are not responsible, but in reality it was there to scare me as a consumer. I personally have collected from a buggy hitting my vehicle with very little issues (so shows you how much BS those signs are).
Again, this is in the US...I have no knowledge of countries outside the US in terms of these laws, so YMMV if that describes your situation.
I wanted to reply to RagnBone on employees stealing customers. After a week on vacation with my employee filling-in for me, I'm happy to report that my employee still works with me and all my customers are still there. I don't get this uneasy feeling of poaching for two main reasons. First, there is so much cardboard out there that I doubt I have even 2 percent of the market in Philly. There is no need to steal my customers because there is so much fiber out there that anyone can collect thousands of tons. The only problem for any potential competitors is what are they going to do once they collect that cardboard? They need the equipment to bale and transport that fiber in order to get a fair price and that equipment don't come cheap. They could sell to another paper broker but they won't have the volume to get a good price (probably $50/ton or less). Second, I think I treat my employees pretty well. I think I pay them an above average wage and that should buy some loyalty. Also, the two guys I have are hard workers but they're not the type that are planning to start their own business. If they started asking about my buyer, profits per ton or other details on the business, I would get concerned. But we usually talk about how horrible the Sixers are or how the Eagles will disappoint us. My newest employee did ask if I would buy fiber that he collected on the side after work and I just told him that I didn't want to do that because I couldn't tell what he collected on the job or off. He didn't push much after that. I think he just needed some more money and full-time work.
Well that's good to hear, StRegis. If there's one thing America has enough of, it's cardboard.
I just wish the Styrofoam pieces you get in every power tool package were worth their weight in gold.
Much like a hobo might daydream about box cars overflowing with fine wine and finer women, I like to daydream about being a Styrofoam scrapper, wealthy beyond his wildest dreams.
No more back pain for me...
Another update for Summer 2016. We had an incredibly hot weekend and I was busy Saturday collecting cardboard at an outlet mall. I don't usually collect here but made the 40 mile trip because there are a bunch of big box stores nearby that I wanted to scout. No luck at the big box stores. Spent half the day filling up my truck with cardboard and scrap metal and nearly passed-out behind a Target store from the heat. Then we got a spot thunderstorm which ended my collecting for the day. Was it worth it? Probably not, but I realized on the drive over that I should expand into collecting e-waste and scrap metal. A number of customers asked if I collected e-waste in the past and I reluctantly took it and sold to a scrap yard for about 20 cents a pound. But I've been researching on the internet and it seems to be a natural extension of what I do now and doesn't require any new equipment. Right now I'm just piling the computers and printers into a storage container and will look for buyers when it is near full. I think Asian buyers are still looking for this stuff.
As for the paper business, it hasn't been this good for a long time. I'm seeing really strong demand from my buyer. He's willing to buy everything I have including mixed paper and boxboard. And prices have gone up by another $5-$10 in the past month which delivers a pretty solid profit each week. My two workers and I have been collecting everything we can find and I even went out on a few night and weekend runs just to top-off some shipments for my buyer. My workers got a bonus for the first time since Christmas and they now have a weekly target for collecting and if they achieve it they get the bonus. Not sure how much longer these good times will last. I always read about China's economy slowing down. But I'm not seeing it from my scrap yard in Philly. I've got two intermodal containers full and ready for pick-up later today - destination China. I've been mostly saving up the profits I've made this year, expecting some weaker pricing in the future. But if things stay good for the remainder of the year, I might look at adding new eqpmt like another truck, another scale and a larger baler. Well that's enough of a coffee break for me, back to work.
Well, I thought I'd give my Sept update on my paper scrapping adventures. This past month has just been crazy busy. I had my busiest 4 weeks ever with over 300 tons shipped. Pricing is still strong, increasing again by $10 per ton. My two employees and I have been working 14 hour days to collect all the paper we can find but nobody is complaining. We had to move further away from our base to find the volumes we need going as far as 40 miles away. It takes longer and we use more gas but the numbers work out. I've even worked full days on weekends doing the paperwork with my wife and baling just to keep up. And the metal scrap we collect is just being dumped in a pile in our yard, no time to sort or take to the scrap yard. I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm trying to transition to a manager but that day will need to wait. My customer just wants all the paper I can get so it's all hands on deck. I rented an extra truck for the month and had my cousin help out with collections. I know the good times won't last long so you gotta take all you can get when the gettin' is good. The best thing about the higher prices is that it is all profit for the business. To my readers, let me know if there is anything you want me to talk about in more or less detail. And how I can make this thread on cardboard scrapping more helpful. Thanks.
Anymore updates. Always interested in this thread
I wish it would pay to haul cardbooard in the Phoenix area. It is everywhere in abundance free for the taking. My wife saves plastic which pays 50 cents a pound and once saved cardboard. We have the room to do so and had about 500 pounds of it when we finally hauled it to the buyer. It was pitiful what she made. There was a front loader garbage truck from Mesa in there dumping it's load of cardboard. The entire compacted truck load paid the city $360 bucks. If you have someone that pays $60 bucks a ton for cardboard I am jealous.
Well last month was probably the peak for cardboard prices in 2016. Prices this month went down $10 a ton but my buyer is still willing to take all I can sell him. But the price cut is a suggestion to slow down on the collections. I'm OK with that since I'm getting close to $100 a ton and I was going full throttle for the past two months and need a break. Now I'm just collecting from my regular pick-up spots and a few retailers in surrounding towns. It's enough to keep me and my employees busy and I only spend a half day working on weekends now. My buyer feels pretty confident about demand for cardboard staying strong next year. I look at the residential recyclables and Amazon and Walmart boxes are everywhere. So it looks like my next move is to try and grow a bit more. Probably adding a part-timer to start and leasing another truck for collections. New goal post is 300 tons a month and 500 a month during peak demand season. I finally took in my metal scrap to the local yard and got almost $300 for about 2.5 tons of scrap. That cleared out a spot in the yard which I just filled with about 5,000 books delivered from a local college on pallets. Looking if I can resell some of these or if my paper broker will take as is. Surprisingly I don't think I can get much for it as scrap paper. Will keep you all posted.
There is one cardboard buyer in Mesa AZ I know of. In fact they quit buying it but recently started again. There has to be others in the valley but with overhead driving a load to Phoenix would not cover expenses. There is an abundance of good cardboard for the taking everywhere but because there is a lack of buyers most of it goes in to the city recycle dumpsters. I don't know what they pay for cardboard but I did speak with a trash truck driver who was offloading cardboard. He had quite a load. He showed me the reciept. Less than $350 for the entire front loading garbage truck body load. To me that means a truck or trailer load I could haul baled or not would not net much. So I will scrap that idea. Pun intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by StRegis
I thought I'd give one last update before year end. Prices for cardboard are slipping about $10 per ton over the past two months to about $90 to $95. Demand from China also seems to be dropping. My buyer says it's because of the strong dollar making cardboard from Europe cheaper for the Chinese mills. I started researching a mill buyer here in the northeast and am scheduled to visit them in January. It seems like a good back-up buyer in case Trump's trade policies restrict imports from China. I don't think demand for cardboard would change much because both sides have a lot to lose with high tariffs in place, but you never know. Plus I think I can get paid quicker if selling here in the US. I haven't had any problems with my current buyer and he's the only person I have sold to since I started the business but recently it has taken 60 days to get paid. That makes me a little nervous since I don't have a big enough operation to survive getting stiffed. I now have a full time driver and a part time helper that does collecting and baling for me. I think staffing will be the same for at least the next 3 or 4 months. Not many new customer adds to speak of. But the weather may become more of an issue as the first snow is expected this week. To all those reading, have a merry Christmas and happy new year!!!
Thanks for the update and insights into the card board business. Merry Christmas and 73, Mike
Thank you for the update, Ive really enjoyed reading your progress!
What kind of compression do you get with a baler doing cardboard? 2 to 1? Doesn't seem like it would be that much vs flat loose cardboard, but I could be wrong.
Not to bump an old thread, but I've really been thinking heavy about the cardboard thing.
With Amazon taking more and more market, really reshaping the way that we shop, I can't help but think that the amount of cardboard available for recycling has to be skyrocketing. Now it's just a matter of figuring out how to collect it, bail it, and then ship it to someone like your buyer from different locations.