How e-scrap is processed - Page 2

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

while the price has increased, the yield is what i am discussing. yield continues to drop, due to the smaller amount of pm being used in circuit boards, while the cost to recover that smaller yield is increasing.

What I am saying is that from 2005 until now, the yield has not really dropped. There is a very good reason for this. Businesses are in the business of making money. When the cost of production goes up, they respond by doing one of two things, either passing on that expense to the customer, or cutting costs in the production of those items.

Traditionally it has just been passed along to the customer, and this is why we see prices continue to climb. When consumers in the United States were no longer willing to bear this expense, manufacturers sought cheaper labor. This created a huge buffer for manufacturers to play with. We are still enjoying the benefit of inexpensive labor currently.

The actual value of gold or other precious metals in electronics makes up a very small percentage of the overall cost of those items. Manufacturers are far more concerned with labor at this point, than they are precious metals. Lets take a smart phone for example.

There are 0.034 grams of gold in each cell phone, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. That's the equivalent of 0.001 troy ounces, worth about $1.60 at today's prices.

There are also 16 grams of copper, worth about 12 cents, 0.35 grams of silver, worth 11 cents, and 0.00034 grams of platinum, valued at 54 cents.

You can see that there is not enough precious metals involved in smart phones to worry about using them. That is how efficient plating technologies currently are. It isn't about the cost of the precious metals, it's more about the SUPPLY of precious metals that is driving industry to seek other methods of conducting electricity. It has even been suggested that more readily available metals such as copper and tin, could be used because people throw their electronics away so quickly, so keep stock piling copper, it's the next silver.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

corrosion. electrical circuit. anything that interferes with the completion of a electrical circuit. oxidation is a form of corrosion.

Oxidation is part of corrosion but it is NOT corrosion

Corrosion involves two chemical processes…oxidation and reduction. Oxidation is the process of stripping electrons from an atom and reduction occurs when an electron is added to an atom. You need both of these, strictly speaking, to claim corrosion. Gold does not oxidize nor does it corrode no matter how little of it you use, unless it is alloyed more than 75% with other metals, which is not the case with any electronics. When silver oxidizes, or tarnishes as you may know it, it builds up a protective layer that prevents any more oxidation. It is almost what is called non-reactive. Gold is plated over copper in electronics to prevent oxidation. Copper is similar to silver in this respect, in that once it oxidizes it builds up a protective layer, or what you may have seen as a green layer like on the Statue of Liberty, etc. If the protective layer is stripped off by lets say wind, rain, etc then a new layer is exposed, this could be considered corrosion because the electrons that were stripped left copper oxide on the outside, that then were able to combine with free atoms of water or air, and fell off. A good example of this would be rust on iron. But also a good example of oxidation before reduction would be the blueing you see on a gun. The metal is oxidized to create what gun smiths call a layer of rust, so that no more oxidation or reduction can continue.

You are right however, any oxidation builds resistance to electrical current. Of the precious metals used in electronics, silver is the only one that oxidizer, all the rest are non reactive.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

this is not about the numerous uses we now have that employ circuit boards. IF, the boards were to no longer having any pm for corrosion, there would not be enough yield from base metals to justify the processing of end of life material.

If all noble metals were removed from electronics, it would still be very profitable to process them for many reasons. The plastics alone would make it worth while. All the base metals would make it worth while. The other materials would make it worth while. Even the stuff you think would not be worthwhile is, I am working with a company that takes slag for example, and creates long fibers using other waste materials in the long glass fibers, then mixes them with different types of cement to create cement of far superior strength. Because the waste materials are actually included in the glass slag, they are made inert but strengthen the cement considerably. 99% of electronics is recyclable.

There is currently a silver shortage

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

you are right. yet the market has not reacted to that at this time.

The market has not responded because silver is artificially deflated, as is gold, and the rest of the noble metals. They have to be deflated, if their real value were ever realized, industry would have to respond by raising prices, which would cause consumers to stop consuming, or buying however you want to say it, which would cause our economy worldwide to collapse. Silver will continue to be artificially deflated until such a time as industry is no longer using it in quantities that cause it to be in short supply. But as industry uses less and less noble metals, individual people purchase more and more. In China for example, people are purchasing gold from teller machines.

China installs gold vending machine, plans 2,000 more - GOLD NEWS - Mineweb.com Mineweb

There is more demand for precious metals than there are precious metals, which makes it even more profitable to process electronics, even if half as much precious metals were used. Matter of fact, precious metals are so valued that companies are buying up all the old mining claims, and processing the tailings. They contain precious metals in forms that were not profitable to process 20-30 years ago, but because of the value of those same metals today, it has made it highly profitable to process tailings for the sulfide ores, etc. So here is a good example of reduced content of precious metals, yet being extremely profitable to process. And believe me when I tell you, there is far less gold in a ton of tilings than in a ton of electronic waste. Matter of fact there is more precious metals in one ton of cell phones than 17 tons of ore.

Recycling Mining Tailings on Lake Superior · Environmental Management & Energy News · Environmental Leader

1 ton of cell phones has more gold than 17 tons of gold ore! - OMG Facts

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

the dell motherboard failure. hp to a lesser amount. all caused by the lack of properly plated mating surfaces and minimal solder traces. the traces failed under load due to heat. the mating surfaces failed from corrosion.

I would actually like to read the article you obtained that information from, it's my understanding that it was not the noble metals in the Dell or HP motherboard failures, but was in fact faulty components that were leaking chemicals that cause the actual failures.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/te...anted=all&_r=0

http://support.bsiusa.com/PDF/OOW_Su...2006-05-04.pdf

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

while both company's replaced mb's under warranty along with a bit of bad media, it has been shown that the majority of failed computers were simply replaced at the consumers expense.

the point, if the manufacturers can continue to sell their products using 'cheaper' ( less pm or the elimination of pm plating) then the recovery rate of those pm's will drop accordingly.

industrial standards have not dropped off to the same extent. but there are far fewer of those boards in circulation and they are not replaced as often.

I still don't believe it was the precious metals or lack of that caused the issue. It wasn't the copper plated with gold on the motherboard that caused failure, it was capacitors and other components that did so. Dell has not changed the equipment it uses for manufacturing motherboards, or rather plating the motherboards. To do so would be to incur a cost for tooling up that it just simply did not need to do. It would be an expense that really would add very little bottom line savings, thus industry will only tool up when either one of two things happen. When regulated by government or regulation entities to do so because of whatever reason, perhaps environmental. Or when the cost to benefit ratio makes it worth the time, effort, energy and cost. In other words, how many computers would need to be sold and an extra profit margin to pay for the expense of shutting down, purchasing and installing the equipment, training the employees, etc. You are talking about a year, or maybe longer, to employ this type of tool up. This is also the reason why most of the plating industry in the United States went belly up. When the EPA changed the laws, industry couldn't incur the cost so instead packed up and moved, or just simply shut down operations.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

the volume of circuit boards in use has increased. dramatically. over the past 35 years. which is not, does not, equate to an over all aggregate increase in pm usage in relation to the volume of product increase.

Or you can look at this in a different way. IF less precious metals are used in electronics, this also means that industry responded to higher precious metal prices. The ration of value of metal, to how much is actually used, has gone up dramatically. So as metals become worth more, and less are used in electronics, still the VALUE of those metals increases the value of the metal to be recovered. So contrary to your argument, it becomes even more profitable because you don't have to process as much to get the same return on investment in scrap. Let me see if I can give you an example.

These are not actual numbers, I am just going to use them for argument sake.

Lets say there is 1 total gram of gold per each computer, and lets also say that 1 gram of gold is worth $15 dollars in 2005 (actual value) so that each computer produced in 2005 would be worth $15 dollars in gold.

Now lets say for whatever reason, industry decided to incur the cost to too up and make the gold plating twice as efficient so that now there is only .5 grams or 1/2 of a gram used in computers today. That would be, according to today's spot price, right around $25 dollars worth of gold in each computer.

Now lets look at this figure. In 2005, to make $100 dollars in gold, you would have had to process 6.6 computers, if half as much gold was used in new computers today, it still would only take 4 computers to make as much in gold. So you not only have to process fewer computers, but your costs involved in processing to make $100 is less, less time, less energy, less labor.

So to recap, industry will only incur the cost to tool up, to make plating precious metals more efficient if the cost of precious metals raises to such a point as to make it more profitable to do so.

Precious metal prices are artificially deflated to prevent the rise in cost for consumer goods so as not to affect our economy in a negative way.

Even if industry uses half as much precious metals in electronics, it will be because the price of precious metals has increased to such a point as to make it more profitable, which will make it less expensive to process the same $100 dollar value, thus making this investment, even if we are discounting all the other recycle benefits outside of precious metals, even more profitable.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

which takes me back to my original question. is a 3 million dollar investment to increase processing capability's a viable investment.

or more simply put. what is the cap rate of the project.

If we were to remove the value of precious metals utterly from figuring if this is profitable, it would be so. The person I know who is already installing a second processing line, is not doing this for the precious metals, he's doing it for the other materials. The precious metals are just a benefit. Matter of fact, he has them processed and then hoards the precious metals as a commodity for obvious reasons.

Or if you doubt what I am saying, just look around in your own state, check how many of these types of businesses are springing up. The recycling industry has enjoyed tremendous growth!

The U.S. electronics recycling industry has shown tremendous growth over the past 10 years. This maturing segment of the scrap recycling industry provides a boost of approximately $5 billion to the U.S. economy (up from less than $1 billion in 2002) and employs more than 30,000 full time employees (up from 6,000 in 2002).

Electronics Recycling

I hope my post isn't too cumbersome, or is taken as being argumentative or combative. I enjoy the discourse. I believe in backing up what I have said with information I have read. I am not going off half cocked here, anytime I post anything, I try to make sure it's real, and true. In doing so, I truly hope that I help someone else become more profitable or to make a better business decision. I spend a lot of time on my posts when I choose to do so, because I honestly feel it is a worthwhile pursuit to help other people understand these things in more detail. It's also the reason why I read so many of the valuable posts on this forum, because they in turn help me become better in my own business.

Scott

In doing so, I truly hope that I help someone else become more profitable or to make a better business decision.

Full article at Scrap Metal Forum: http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/scrap...#ixzz2Om4BlNYD
Yes you did Scott, thank you!!

I would actually like to read the article you obtained that information from, it's my understanding that it was not the noble metals in the Dell or HP motherboard failures, but was in fact faulty components that were leaking chemicals that cause the actual failures.

While I don't have any articles on hand, I do have an experience with what I believe was a failure in the connections on a circuit board. I have an HP cb366a laser jet printer. I had bought it among other things in a lot, and thought it would be a good printer to use for my office at the time. However, it didn't work. It only powered up, and had no function other than that. I looked into problems other people were having with this printer, and as a last resort actually followed someone's instructions to bake the motherboard in an oven. I can't remember the temp or time I left it in (it was only a few minutes), but I'm guessing it was long enough for the solder to become fluid again and flow back over whatever broken connection existed. I put it into an old restaurant oven that I was going to scrap in my backyard (it still worked, but definitely was not going to pass health inspections). Popped the board back in, and it still works today.

Yeah, cold solder joints is a problem with newer electronics. I know a guy that purchases Costco returns from a company that has an agreement with Costco, he only buys the electronics that fail and do not work. He says that about 15% of them have cold solder joints, and that your exact trick works on the motherboards. Great tip by the way for other people to try in re purposing electronics that are not working.

I think though, that rbrooks715 was referring to corrosion or decomposition, not cold solder joins which are not caused by corrosion but instead came from the manufacturer that way, or were caused when plugging into sockets too hard and breaking the soldered connection, or it might also be possible that some components heated up hot enough to cause the solder to melt away from the contacts, but I don't think heating it up again would have fixed that problem, but make it worse instead.

Anyway, thanks for the tip, great point, I hope other people post about the method it seems like it would have merit and value.

Scott

Originally Posted by ozzy214

I just did 100 pc's from a charity. These were given to them by various gov agencies like Careerlink, hospitals etc. I processed them up. 99% had blown caps. Now I dont think it was ****ty engineering or parts. I do think being left on 24/7 was the culprit. But yet who knows. Knock on wood. I built a pc in 2007 out of used parts on Ebay for my moms bday. I was ona budget and not working at the time. Specifically msi board socket 939 and a 3500+ cpu. System still runs after 6 years of being on pretty much non stop. No signs of caps blowing. Most I did is a couple windows reinstalls over the years. So maybe it is inferior parts in the dells, hps. You tell me...

Last summer I picked up a load of misc, computers, lcd monitors, etc. that came from an office environment. They had all suffered a power surge and was showing blown cap's all over the place. Sometimes it's not mfg. error.

Originally Posted by unknownk

Its a known fact that bad capacitors made it into the supply lines of all the major PC manufacturers a few years back. Quite a few machines made during this time go bad because of those capacitors, nothing can be done except replacing the capacitors.

This is exactly the point I was attempting to politely state, lets not confuse corrosion from leaking capacitors with noble metals that do not corrode plated on a mother board. There is a huge difference. This thread seemed to get off topic because the argument was presented that less precious metals are used on motherboards since 2005 which is in fact not the case. It was suggested that Dell and HP were guilty of plating with less precious metals and that they were corroding, which cannot be the case because gold is non-reactive, and that the failures were caused because of this, which also is not the case.

To answer the questions simply it can be stated that regardless of precious metals content, the operation I originally suggested for processing e-waste, or any type of electronics for that matter, or furthermore, any type of household metal consumer items, would make this system profitable.

Scott

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

the caps were one of the reasons and they did receive the most media. solder joints have been a problem and have caused several law suits. especially on the old rear projections tv's. that law suit is still going.

however, the traces on the boards have been just as big a problem with a lot less media exposure. most of those mb failures have been in the sff and usff units. tho it does occur in larger case profiles that have been upgraded to higher watt cpu's and graphic cards. or that use multiple drive arrays. the traces simply melted from heat. the most common problem in electronics.

What you stated has nothing to do with gold plating, regardless if it's thin or thick gold plating, gold melts at 1948 degrees F. So the gold traces will not melt if the electronic equipment heats up. The equipment would have to burn really hot before the gold would melt. The only case where gold traces could possibly melt would be if there was a continuous arc of electricity that created a plasma stream hot enough to melt noble metals. And I believe I am correct in stating that the equipment would fail long before an electrical arc of that temperature could be created, let alone sustained long enough to melt the gold plating on a mother board. Solder could melt, but that's only because lead is involved, and only because lead melts at 621.5 degrees F and is alloyed with other metals who's melting temp is lowered when alloyed with lead. If you have read anywhere that gold traces on motherboards has melted due to the motherboard heating up, I would like to see that article, it's simply not true. Furthermore, gold does not corrode, it doesn't dissolve under normal conditions, not unless it is in the presence of a strong acid, and strong oxidizer.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

this is not as common in the commercial and industrial arena but it is more common today than 20 years ago.

the prevailing marketing seems to show that the public is willing to deal with these failures. which will only encourage more of the same 'cheap' production.

i do agree that we have not seen a discernible reduction in recoverable materials from the latest generation of circuit boards. yet.

there was a large drop in recoverable material from the boards produced from 98 ish to 05 in comparison to previous generations. those currently make up the majority of recycled material.

In 2002 gold prices started to skyrocket, industry responded by replacing older plating technology with newer, more efficient technology. However, gold prices raised to a point that made it even more profitable to recover precious metals from these new boards. So the new plating technology didn't affect the recycle industry at all, contrary, it was more profitable than ever to recover those precious metals.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

we have not seen the newer generation boards in sufficient quantity to assess just how much lower that recovery may be.

the circuit board manufacturers continue to lower their bid/costs per sq inch per demands from the computer manufacturers. those lower costs are directly related to the decreasing use of, and type of, plating and trace materials.

We are talking about the profitability of recovering precious metals from e-waste. Think about what you are saying, you are claiming that electronics fail faster. This would create even more e-waste, making even more precious metals available for processing. If people are replacing electronics twice as fast, that means twice as less precious metals could be used and the cost of processing that scrap wouldn't really go up that much, and industry would respond paying less so as to keep the same net profit margin.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

simply put. we will see more circuit boards being used in more items. the recyclable value of those boards is/was the question. from several different views. adding a second processing line must be a viable investment. roi and cap. even more important, you must continue to have a viable feed stock. if the board prices were to drop,( ie. low grade), how would that impact your incoming material volume.

how many of the current or potential future 'scrappers' would continue if the average board was a $.25 / lb pricing?

at what point does the cost to recycle a product over come the return of that recycled product.


as you stated, the pm is what drives the price, and the return. eliminate the pm from the product and you have a pricing system that will soon resemble sheet metal.

how many of the current sellers of circuit boards will continue to recycle electronics for sheet metal pricing.

you are not going to sustain a circuit board processing facility on plastic, glass and base, (low end), metals. the cost of that processing is simply too high.
there has been a huge increase in the number of recycling centers and individuals. yet the number of new board processors is not increasing. it is why we see an increasing lead time from current processors. the volume of material has increased, but the capacity to process has not.

This is not a circuit board facility, watch the video. However, even if it was a circuit board facility, the very way circuit boards are usually processed by refineries is to incinerate, and recover values from the ashed material. This same process is used for many other types of waste that contain precious metals, so that particular system would not be affected even if e-waste was not available tomorrow to process.

So long as you keep the same net profit margin, and adjust your purchasing of material accordingly, no matter what industry does you will make the same profit margin and if efficient can even increase it. It's business, you operate as a business in the ways a business is suppose to. It seems you assume that the same prices would be paid for less profitable material, that is not the way to run a business, nor the way industry responds to markets. If the material is worth less, you buy it for less, thus keeping the same net profit.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

the financing for a facility is not the tough part. the time frame and permitting is far more difficult. and at this time, a new processing facility does not pass long term viability.

Where did you read that, where are the figures. I have posted a lot of information proving otherwise beyond any doubts. Where are you getting the information you are basing your argument on? You are just simply wrong in your assumptions. You cannot post an opinion as if it were a fact and then base your entire argument on it. New processing facilities are obviously needed. Matter of fact, we could increase the number by 80% before we ever hit saturation, considering that under 20% of all the e-waste generated in this country is currently being processed. And that's just e-waste, that's not counting all the other material you see being put on the belt, in the video I provided in the post that started this thread.

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

no. i am just giving a different view. a longer term view of this particular business.

If that is your opinion of long term viability, what in the world are you doing here, on this forum, concerning yourself with processing e-waste at all?

Originally Posted by rbrooks715

to be honest, i think the politicians are going to do more to screw this up than anything else. govt. is broke and they see this industry as their new cash cow. between all of the new proposed permits, licenses and taxes, many currently in the business will simply find find an easier path to tread.

The US Government does not see recycling as their cash cow, considering that 45% of our gross national product has something to do with war, in some way, I think the US Government is more concerned about which war to get involved in so we can keep churning out weapons, which keeps our economy going and allows us to purchase the cheap electronics China creates, and we recycle. I am not sure how you can even state something like that when not only state governments are putting up huge amounts of cash in the forms of loans, redemptions, tax breaks and out right grants, but the Federal Government, and it's agencies such as the EPA as well.

If you don't see this industry as being a growth industry, again, why are you on this forum at all?

There exists no entrepreneurs that have had any amount of success who have built that success on the belief that they could not do so. Contrary, all have believed they could.

When I was in the grocery business we had a saying. Success comes in Cans, not cannots. I think this also applies to recycling, success comes in recycled cans, not in unrecycled cannots.

Scott

I don't understand the correlation between oil refineries being built, and precious metals.

If you are going to point out any president, it would only be fair to point out the fact that every president has overspent, and in the areas that campaign funds were funneled to them, to get to that level of government you have to be corrupt. Take our current president for example, he has received more money (80 million++ in his first election) than any other president in history, from pharmaceutical companies and has created a health care system that has made it illegal to seek out less expensive drugs outside the united states, giving the drug industry free reign to charge the government whatever they desire. Or take Monsanto, now they cannot be charged with crimes? Or take the fact that 45% of our GPD has something to do with arms, and now as a country we are antagonizing a country that even Bush was smart enough to leave alone and just ignore. As Iraq and Afghanistan tool down, as a country we need another war to keep the economy churning.

Politicians are evil for the most part. Oil companies refine elsewhere because it's less expensive. We currently ship out more e-waste than we process in this country, I say lets change that. I say lets recycle everything instead of being profiteering gluttons and sending it overseas for the easy dollar. I say lets get smart about what we are doing. There is more than enough precious metal waste going into the dumps, overseas, or just being hoarded to continue the type of growth we are seeing in this industry for generations to come. We will always be producing waste, and there will always be a need to recycle that waste. There is only a finite amount of these things on earth, period.

And as precious metals become more and more useful, the demand will only be more.

Nay say all you want, all you really have to do is look from the 70s, until now, see the amount of waste we still do not recycle, crunch the numbers and anyone can figure out that the scrap, e-waste, i-waste, recycling, metal industry is the place to be. And just imagine if we stop shipping our material to other countries and did it ourselves, right here, in our own country. Wow!

Scott

Good discussion gentleman....I do have to agree with Noble though as far as the recycling industry as a growing business, especially the ewaste side of it. Look at how far technology has come in 15 years. Cellphones,smartphones, laptops,tablets,gps,hi-def everything, lcd tv, lcd monitors. The cd is now obsolete because you can download 1000's of music files on your phone and plug it in to a nice dock and have a high quality sound system on your kitchen table. 20 years ago to get that you had to have space in your living room for a rack system to get that sound quality. Now it seems every 6 months the next great version comes out and no one wants to be left behind so they upgrade what they have or buy new. Whether its made with more or less pm's or something new and improved remains to be seen. What I do know is that there is a demand out there for new and improved, which means that there will always be a demand for the raw materials to manufacture them.

As far as regulations and permits...they have always been in place and always will. No matter what industry we speak about, big brother will always have his hand in your pocket. Its part of doing business.

Originally Posted by happyisthealero

what is a pm brasscatcher? I am not talking about personal message just so that we are clear

Precious metals

As far as regulations and permits...they have always been in place and always will. No matter what industry we speak about, big brother will always have his hand in your pocket. Its part of doing business.

And in some cases "big brother" has regulated it clear out of business. So many reg's that it chokes the life out of any company that tries to make a business out of it.

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

And in some cases "big brother" has regulated it clear out of business. So many reg's that it chokes the life out of any company that tries to make a business out of it.

Absolutely...and it seems as though the ones that survive are related to big brother or have deeper pockets than most of us trying to grind it out.